Maps and documents recovered from the bodies of Hamas attackers reveal a coordinated plan to target children and take hostages inside an Israeli village near Gaza.
Documents exclusively obtained by NBC News show that Hamas created detailed plans to target elementary schools and a youth center in the Israeli kibbutz of Kfar Sa’ad, to “kill as many people as possible,” seize hostages and quickly move them into the Gaza Strip.
The attack plans, which are labeled “top secret” in Arabic, appear to be orders for two highly trained Hamas units to surround and infiltrate villages and target places where civilians, including children, gather. Israeli authorities are still determining the death toll in Kfar Sa’ad.
The world needs to recognise PALESTINIANS as legitimate but not Hamas. Hamas has invaded the open wound which is Gaza, and promotes evil toxicity rather than healing.
Lol
54% of palestinians support hamas.
even west bank leaders (fatah) are scared to hold elections… i hope you know why.
palestine as an ethnicity is a modern invention. and prior to partition, jews were called Palestinians.
Palestinians isn’t modern, zionists and racists just like to ignore that not all Palestinians are Muslim.
Also the median age in Gaza is 18. I wonder why growing up in an open air prison would lead you to fall in with extremists? Guess the Palestinians are just flawed individuals. Nothing to do with right wing Israeli politicians taking direct steps to block peace and continue colonizing Palestinian land.
This! So much this!! It’s as if others can’t grasp how being under siege by a foreign occupier might make you actually hate the foreign occupier
Jews aren’t a “foreign occupier”. There were always Jews in the area.
They didn’t say Jews. Israel is the foreign occupier. There were Jews and Muslims and Christians there forever, the Europeans colonized it.
west bank palestinians are extreme and are continuing to become even more
What could possibly be the cause of this
I voted for Joe Biden but don’t support him, because America won’t let me have another party. Do I support his policy with Israel?
No, I do not.
because America won’t let me have another party.
but palestine is not america
there are several parties to chose from it’s a multi party system.
Woosh
Israel is responsible for far more death than Hamas, yet you blame Hamas. This open wound you speak of, it’s maintained and exacerbated by the IDF.
It’s possible to blame both. There’s nothing in the comment you’re responding to saying Israel is not a terror state or that they’re not to blame for things going to shit.
You can absolutely blame Hamas for their actions. And you can blame Israel for Hamas. Responding to completely fair criticism of Hamas by whining that Israel is worse is just whataboutism. They are both terror organizations at this point.
This is why I’ve stayed out of the fray, everyone here is a bad actor. There are decades of eye for an eye that have resulted in everyone being blind.
Revolutionary militant groups don’t spawn where material conditions are being met. If every Palestinian was “middle class,” Hamas would have never flourished. Which tells you everything about who is to blame.
To add to this and as I wrote somewhere else, the Israeli State has for so long made life so hard for Palestinians, especially in the Gaza strip, that there are now tens of thousands of Palestinians with so little to lose that joining an organisation internationally seen as a terrorist organisation is still a step-up from that.
Reminds me of the parable “the more you squeeze the more sand dissapears between your fingers”.
The Israeli far-right strategy all these years in power in Israel has been one of such extreme and calous treatment of those human beings they deem as pretty much üntermensch (all with the full support of the US, by the way) that it hasn’t increased Israel’s security but actually done the opposite, leaving one to wonder if the strategy all along of the Israeli far-right wasn’t sacrificing a few thousand Israelis in order to justify the outright genocide the Israeli Army is seems to be about to commit.
Only a fool thinks those who casually crush people from the “other group” with violence, genuinelly care about people from “their group” - that’s not how killers work.
Look at the massacre apologist…
You can do many things before joining a terrorist org. Many Gazans prefer to work in Israel instead for example. And even if you did, there’s a very long path from joining for the sake of bettering you status to killing children in their beds as they sleep.
Your arguments are so “powerful” that you had to start your post by othering and then slandering the person you disagree with.
The funny bit is that in the only part that made a tiny bit of sense in that oft parroted rant of your (I could swear I’ve been reading those exact same words since even before the murder of Arafat), you ended up confirming my point: Gazans would much rather live and work in the same conditions as the Israeli and, lo-and-behold, those who do get a chance to even just get close to that (as they’re never more than 3rd class citizens in Israel) don’t join terrorist groups.
Imagine that: given people opportunities to live a half-way decent life and treat them with even just the minimum of respect, and they don’t join terrorist groups. What! A! Shocker!
That’s absolutely not true. The 9/11 hijackers were Saudis. A country that literally has a basic income program to give it’s citizens cash.
Revisionist history. It is true. May want to brush up on your history. They were Al-qaeda and were based in Afghanistan. They were fighting American Imperialism which exploits their region and extracts wealth.
Also: Free Palestine 🇵🇸
You link literally starts with “15/19 were Saudi citizens”
Also: Hamas deserves no quarter. Free Palestine from their reign of terror.
It’s not whataboutism, it’s identifying the root cause of the conflict. They’re absolutely both terror organizations, but criticizing one without criticizing the other equally is taking a clear side.
It’s not taking a clear side, sometimes one of them is the topic of conversation.
There is no Hamas without Israel. There is no discussion of one side without discussion of the other, unless you were trying to create an asymmetrical dialogue.
Sometimes I’m on the phone and just want to type a few sentences on-topic, not a history essay.
It’s so easy to write damning sentences about Hamas, and so difficult to write the same about Israel.
So you want all Jews to leave the area?
Israelis call themselves Jews, but it’s clear they worship Mammon.
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Israel isn’t the excuse, Israel is the cause. There is no Hamas without Israel. The Israeli government, funds and informs them so they have a righteous enemy.
You either lack integrity, intelligence, or both.
Your straw man about whataboutism is a logical fallacy. It’s cherry picking the false equivalence of Motte and Bailey versus ad hominem. It lacks epistemic justification and borders on begging the question : Free Palestine 🇵🇸
No reason to argue with an anti-semitic Nazi like you are.
I thought the talking points propaganda department would at least wait a week before bringing back the hits, but here we are: projection.
Also: Free Palestine 🇵🇸
Remember when we almost had peace in '94 and then a Zionist fucked it all up?
Wait I don’t know about that.
Copied from myself elsewhere:
In 94 we (royal) almost had peace. In '93 The Oslo accords promised Palestinians self governance in 5 years. Israel under Rabin and Abbas with the PLO had an agreement for Palestine to be run by the PA in the mean time and work towards peace.
Rabin along with either Abbas or Arafat (can’t remember) even pulled Israeli troops out of occupied Palestine and gave land back as part of the peace agreement, marking the most significant step towards peace we will see.
But then Rabin was assassinated in 95 by a zionist. Israel turns over to Netanyahu. Netanyahu refuses to meet with Arafat.
Oslo II fell apart as the US refused to recognize Hamas (who had popular support), preferring the secular Fatah (PA). Whats the point in holding an election if it wont be recognized anyways? Hamas doesn’t enter the '96 race.
At some point Netanyahu starts funding Hamas knowing that he can also pit Hamas against the Fatah. Netanyahu will fund Hamas on multiple occasions throughout the 90’s and 2000’s.
In '97 the US declares Hamas a terrorist group, ending any chance of an election that satisfies the people.
Hamas wins the '06 election
Saying Rabin was assassinated by a Zionist is very unfair. Especially since Rabin was one of the biggest Zionist leaders since ever. Yigal Amir (Rabin’s killer) is a Kahanist terrorist. And while self identifying as a Zionist, he probably also opposes most major Zionist leaders across history, from Ben Gurion to Rabin. It’s similar to saying a KKK hate crime was commited by Wstern American patriots.
Anyway after the murder, Israel had made very serious attempts at peace.
- Hebron treaty
- Wye and Sharem memorandums
- Camp David talks
- Aqaba, the Geneba Initiative
- Sharem a-Sheikh summit
- The unilateral disengagement and freeing of Gaza from Israeli occupation
- Olmert - Abbas talks
- The Annapolis Conference
- The 2010 peace talks
- The 2013-2014 peace talks
Some of those were very extensive and Israel made large concessions in the negotiations. Most of the serious attemts were ended by the Palestinians. There’s a saying in israel “The Palestinians never miss the opportunity to miss an opportunity for peace”. Today the Palestinian Authority (PA) has very little legitimacy within the Palestinian population, and arguably don’t represent the Palestinian people. It’s not cut and dry since there hadn’t been any elections in decades, but the sentiment for Hamas and other Palestinian factions and against the PA is very clear.
In spite of your bad faith arguments in this thread I do intend to look into this list.
I’m sorry if you felt my arguments were in bad faith, and I’m sorry if I got a bot hot headed. I don’t mean to be rude, I am just very hurt after so many friends and family of mine got murdered. Hope you understand
article 13, “There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.”[6]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter
Must be fun to negotiate with a party for peace, who declared in their charter that all this is “a waste of time and vain endeavors”, alongside genocidal racist fantasies.
Israel politics has it’s own “gems”, but I find the Hamas hard to top. These aren’t accidents, this is all intentional. They don’t want peace.
If I moved into your house without permission and told you I’ll bomb the shit out of you if you look at me funny you wouldn’t accept it right away either.
So that’s why the Oslo accords stalled. That’s horrible.
Yeah there might be more to it but I’m pretty sure that assassination fucked up peace for the last 20 years.
Here’s one of the sources I used to come to my conclusion, it can give a more detailed explanation of the breakdown https://www.britannica.com/topic/Oslo-Accords#ref360514
Rabin was a well respected politician and former military hero, the Israeli public trusted him and would have made peace. Once he was assassinated that radical upstart Netanyahu gained more prominance and slow walked the peace process over a cliff.
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It was not my intention although I can totally understand why it appears that way.
I plan to look into Arafat next. Followed by the events listed by E.B.Y.W. @ lemmy.word
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I’m sure Arafat and the PLO were the reason the IDF killed 223 Palestinians, some children, during a peaceful protest in 2018.
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and then a Zionist fucked it all up
Argh. Yigal Amir was and is a Religious Zionist, Rabin himself was a Labour Zionist.
I appreciate the clarification.
I posted the same comment in another thread and got some good feedback there too.It was this thread.I think “terrorist” is a loaded word and I wanted to understand the context because I’m very familiar with the US’s history of using the word “terrorist” as a cudgel.
And our history of inserting ourselves, refusing to work with the local democratically elected government, setting up our own candidate in the race and… uh sometimes assassinating the opposition if it looks like the plant isn’t going to win. (see Jacobo Arbenz, Mohammad Mosaddeq, Salvador Allende, if you want more listen to “same thing” by Flobots but make sure to verify things after)
But my goal isn’t to say Hamas good Israel bad (although I very much laid it all on Netanyahu). My goal was to see if I could absolve Hamas of the “terrorist” label from the US. Without that label it’s a lot easier to see the true story of Palestine.
But in the interest of staying focused on how this is a problem with Netanyahu and not the Israeli people I wanna say there were several peace talks brought to my attention (several or most involving Bibi) in the thread that I still need to dig into. And I do intend to keep reading so I can speak more accurately on the topic.
My goal was to see if I could absolve Hamas of the “terrorist” label from the US
Nope, you can’t. On the other side of things you can’t absolve Kahanites of the same label, Hamas and Kahanites both employ terrorism as a tactic, both are fascist, and both are genocidal. OTOH I wouldn’t go so far and extend those label to all of religious Zionism, in the same sense that there’s a rather large difference between Mormons and the Ku Klux Klan.
As to Netanyahu: I rather see him as what we call in Germany a stirrup holder: He’s right-wing, no doubt, but primarily he’s interested in power because it allows him to be corrupt without facing prison, if another approach would fulfil his goals he’d drop Otzma Yehudit without second thought. He’s basically a more coherent, more strategic, less impulse-driven, Trump, but as blind to the dangers of fascism and the ways they achieve power as too fucking many other people.
Nope, you can’t.
Maybe I’m explaining myself poorly, maybe you disagree. To clarify to anyone still reading I am not trying to absolve anyone of murder. Hamas did commit terrorism as defined in the dictionary.
But should the US be the entity in charge of making that distinction? Has the US ever used that designation inappropriately?
As an American I think Americans are particularly brainwashed about the term after the War on Terror and tying the word so heavily to racism. Terrorists are monsters but that rhetoric allowed us to dehumanize anyone accused of being a terrorist to horrific levels.
It is my belief that many of us realize we were manipulated by the rhetoric of War on Terror but find it a lot harder to look back before the War on Terror with the same clarity.
You mean a Zionist made Israel great again while cultivating the “victim” mentality of Jews in his country to a degree where (predominantly female) German tourists are openly cornered and asked how they personally would make up for “their” atrocities while those atrocities happened 2 generations ago?
Active conflicts ALWAYS have ACTIVE INFORMATION OPERATIONS.
Be skeptical. Just like how there is always a teddy bear in the rubble in Gaza, don’t take any “smoking gun” evidence at face value, from either side. Period.
At this point I don’t believe a damn word I read. I’m half convinced there isn’t a war. One day after I made a comment that a random twitter user could allege that one side is using white phosphorus and half the people reading would believe it without question, Israel was accused of using white phosphorus.
It’s tiring. Kill every combatant on both sides and let the civilians live in peace.
Sadly, that’s another objective for some types of information operations (not all, but some): believe nothing, trust no one. That is actually one of the primary objectives of Russia’s propaganda machine, which is why their state media gives conflicting accounts of the same story.
But that is not what I’m suggesting anyone does. I’m saying take in the information, mentally archive it, wait, and continue observing.
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The first thing that dies in war is the truth.
It’s nbc news, not randoangryblog.com
It’s information coming from an active warzone of a conflict that has already seen some of the highest levels of active information operations, ever.
Disinformation isn’t just your racist uncle on Facebook, it’s a sophisticated and highly organized aspect of modern warfare.
Even facts from NBC will settle to be more accurate in a few weeks and months. War reporters are rushed into giving some broad strokes statements, where footage and interviews are a more important resource.
But it’s not about NBC News, they aren’t the source they’re just reporting it. Additionally I think everyone has learned that media only cares about being first to the punch with horribly written articles that aim to maximize engagement instead of the facts.
Just look at what the ceo of cbs said in relation to their coverage on tramp
The maps printed out at my county permit center arent as pristine as those maps off dead bodies in a warzone.
This doesn’t look like fabricated evidence at all. I am very happy with the fact checking of our media.
Why does it sound fabricated that an attack that killed 1200 civilians targeted civilians?
For me it makes total sense.
Hamas is a genocidal, racist organization who declared in their charter peace talks are “a waste of time and vain endeavors”.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter
Yeah, maybe this is fabricated. But we do not need to collect evidence to be able to judge who they are. They state it proud and clearly.
I’m talking about the attack plan printout here. Not the attack itself.
I’m not sure about your logic here, do you recognize the attack but reject that it was planned with printouts? Do you think the attack of >2000 terrorists was spontaneous?
I’m not sure if you’re playing dumb here. What I’m saying is, that this looks like Israel is planting fake evidence to spin a narrative. That does neither mean nor imply that there was no attack or that that was not planned. The “40 beheaded babies” turned out to be bullshit and I bet this will too. Even if the printouts turn out to be genuine, the reporting on it seems to be disingenuous and tries to make Hamas, and by extension the Palestinian people, look even worse than they are to make the over the top retaliation more palatable to the world by dehumanizing the enemy.
The ‘40 beheaded babies’ were a misquote from an interview with one IDF commander blown up by some media. It was corrected quickly.
Even if the printouts turn out to be genuine, the reporting on it seems to be disingenuous and tries to make Hamas, and by extension the Palestinian people, look even worse than they are to make the over the top retaliation more palatable to the world by dehumanizing the enemy.
Wait so if I understand you correctly: even if these documents are genuine and prove that Hamas explicitly wanted to target children, it’s still a big media conspiracy to make Hamas worse than they are?
What spin does Israel need to be doing exactly? This is all coming from Hamas itself.
Have you ever heard of propaganda and dehumanization? Have you also noticed how Israel has already killed at least three times more civilians in the past few days?
Hamas targeted residential district …
Hamas target school in … to kill children!!!
Spot the difference. What feels more like honest reporting and why would one choose the other option?
The ‘40 beheaded babies’ were a misquote from an interview with one IDF commander blown up by some media. It was corrected quickly.
Even if the printouts turn out to be genuine, the reporting on it seems to be disingenuous and tries to make Hamas, and by extension the Palestinian people, look even worse than they are to make the over the top retaliation more palatable to the world by dehumanizing the enemy.
Wait so if I understand you correctly: even if these documents are genuine and prove that Hamas explicitly wanted to target children, it’s still a big media conspiracy to make Hamas look worse than they are?
I think you’ve strayed far from the path
Wait so if I understand you correctly: […]
You don’t.
even if these documents are genuine and prove that Hamas explicitly wanted to target children, it’s still a big media conspiracy to make Hamas look worse than they are?
No. But I don’t see that from those pictures. They targeted a residential area, which happened to contain a school (big surprise). Like with the “beheaded babies”, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. From the provided information I’m not convinced that Hamas targeted children specifically.
Targeting civilians is already bad. The way I suggest they spin a story is by setting the focus on children, babies, women, … to appeal to emotions rather than just reporting facts. And I think they do that to dehumanize Hamas and by extension Palestinians to justify the retaliatory atrocities of an even bigger magnitude in the eyes of the world.
It’s really not that hard of a concept to grasp … remember the babies taken out of the incubators in Iraq?
Why do you think that accusing Hamas of the atrocities it did says something about the Palestinians? Do you not recognize that most Palestinians avoid such violant acts? Holding terrorist organizations accountable for their crimes against humanity says nothing about the Palestinians.
Just like how holding the Russian government for their war crimes and their terror does not de-humenizes russians all around the world and in Russia. That’s a child’s way of seeing things.
You quite obviously do not understand how propaganda and dehumanization works.
That’s a child’s way of seeing things.
That’s rich coming from somebody who just said what you said.
Fake evidence to spin a narrative??? We have all seen the result of these plans
I like that you also moved to goal posts since you clearly couldn’t stomach your own shit take on how the plans must be false flag plants, but my favorite part was when you felt able to say that even if they were genuine, that SIMPLY REPORTING IT would be an intelligence attack on Hamas/palestine.
Like are you fucking kidding me??? Shall they only report on things that look good for Hamas?
Fake evidence to spin a narrative??? We have all seen the result of these plans
We have have seen the result of some plan. I’m questioning whether it is 1) the plan that was depicted here and 2) even if it was whether the reporting on its content is accurate.
I like that you also moved to goal posts […]
Not really.
[…] since you clearly couldn’t stomach your own shit take on how the plans must be false flag plan
ts, […]Um, no. You do not seem to understand what false flag means, and nowhere did I suggest any false flag operation.
[…] but my favorite part was when you felt able to say that even if they were genuine, that SIMPLY REPORTING IT would be an intelligence attack on Hamas/palestine.
I did not say anything even remotely like that.
Like are you fucking kidding me??? Shall they only report on things that look good for Hamas?
They should report stuff they have fact checked and not transform ‘the general populace’ into ‘babies, kids, women, cripples, …’. The entire point/concept of terror is hitting soft targets. Reporting only on the ‘very weak’ caters to emotions, not transport of information. And why would they do that …
Oh I’m sorry sir that the volunteers cleaning up the bodies of the 40 babies that were rounded up and murdered and then put on a pile in the middle of the street didn’t wait for a photoshoot. Obviously we have only testimonies of that from officers and volunteers and confirmation from Israeli authorities, since the villages were evacuated as a warzone that no one is premitted to enter. Did you really expect anyone to leave bodies for days until the world media comes to see it?
What I’m trying to say is there’s nothing to spin here. Hamas targeted abused, raped, paraded and kidnapped civilians and children. The massacre was thoroughly planned. It is very reasonable that Israel found a printout of some plan on one of the 1,500 attackers it captured and killed. What is there to benefit from faking such document? Is it not obvious that Hamas targeted civilians and children? What does it add to the table?
Obviously we have only testimonies of that from officers and volunteers and confirmation from Israeli authorities,
No, we have the testimony of one IDF member who promoted Palestinian genocide in the past. Everybody else who was on the scene and gave a statement could not confirm that one
testimonylie. All the newspapers back-paddled on that story; maybe you should too.What is there to benefit from faking such document? Is it not obvious that Hamas targeted civilians
and children?Yes. Children are civilians. The repeated claim is that children were not targeted as part of the populace but specifically. In the eyes of most people that would be even more sinister. And Israel needs Hamas and the Palestinians who supported them to look as bad as possible to distract from their retaliation.
Do I really need to spell it out like that?
Why are you so sure Hamas couldn’t draw up plans and use sat imagery?? Do you think they’re too dumb?
Oh they had plans?! Must be a false flag plant!!!
Give me a break
Just like those decapitated babies they can’t find pics of or prove in any way they exist
Wasn’t the decapitated babies rumor started by US news outlets, then parroted by their president all the while Israel literally said that they don’t have definite proof for that claim and are not investigating in that direction?
Hard to keep up with all the shit slinginging going on.
When you paint yourself into a corner like that your only options are to DIY or try to sweep it under the rug
Yeah the burned photos weren’t doing it since that’s very clearly not the same as beheading and so now they are just trying to show it could be true because “look at all this smoke we are pumping into the room! Somewhere in here might be an actual fire no one can actually find anymore!”
Doesn’t matter. The leaders will keep doing what they want and the people who want to agree and watch the “Animals of Palestine” be wiped out will take anything to prove it was necessary.
It would be hard to say what Israel is lying about in this situation. Overall, it’s not like we don’t have verifiable evidence Hamas planned a invasion and executed it.
We don’t exactly need more proof they were responsible.
But my overall problem has to do with the fact that anyone could have printed these documents and labeled them “Top Secret” and “found” them on enemy combatants. Specifically anyone with an A4 type color printer.
I don’t think Israel has a reason to lie about this, but I will state the obvious that this evidence is paper thin in comparison to the live videos of hostages.
I have no doubt about Hamas fighters invading Israel. That is pretty evident. But this kind of “evidence” found on the fighters is pretty suspicious. It is as credible as the pristine passports of the terrorists found near the WTC after 9/11.
AnYoNe WiTh A pRiNtEr
They have no reason to lie but you think they planted it, hmmm. Yeah top secret on the documents totally means they’re fake because Hamas wouldn’t try to keep battle plans quiet. We know they were organized af but a map is a bridge too far?
They have no reason to lie but you think they planted it, hmmm.
Forgive me, it looks like you walked into our hypothetical discussion and took it at face value. But that is my fault for using a double negative.
Overall, it’s not like we don’t have verifiable evidence Hamas planned a invasion and executed it.
We don’t exactly need more proof they were responsible.
Though if you want me to be honest, I think lying is more in human nature then telling the truth. We will lie for something as simple as winning an online discussion, or as heartfelt to save the people we love.
I don’t like the evidence because it is evidence that is easily created. Anyone with an A4 type printer can take a picture of “Plans” and present it as evidence. I want hard evidence that I can crack my teeth on, not this soggy bread evidence.
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Can you explain how, if not fabricated, it’s blown out of proportion?
Yah, I want to see high resolution scans of those documents, check the MIC and get a statement from the printer manufacturer what country the printer was sold to. Want to place a bet it was Israel?
Edit: fixed link formatting
You know everything imported to Gaza goes through Israel, right?
So you’re saying all printers in Gaza were bought by Israel, right?
All printers in gaza have “Israel” as the region. But not only, basically everything that’s in Gaza is marked in “israel” region. That’s because Egypt almost never open their border crossing with Gaza and doesn’t export anything to Gaza (it had actually just shut down and barred the crossing with concrete slabs today, in order to prevent refugees from escaping).
I’m not even sure what you’re trying to talk about here. Regional settings? Look, devices have serial numbers. Manufacturers keep track of where devices are sold to. It does not matter what route a device takes, only who pays for it. The number of devices in Gaza paid for by Israel is going to be very small. If a non profit in Germany buys a printer for a hospital in Gaza, that device will go through Israel before ending up in the hands of Hamas, and that device might or might not have Israel regional settings, that does not magically make Israel the buyer and does not alter the manufacturers or traders records who the device was sold to. It’s really not that hard to understand, is it?
Huh? I never said israel paid for anything but using the MIC code will just tell you a serial number and region = israel, no matter which country or private citizen money paid for the printer. That’s not proof of anything.
Hahahahahaha, braindead
It’s funny how “ToP sECrEt” docs always get released at the most convenient time.
I mean that’s literally how the union won Gettysburg, it’s not that ludicrous
They weren’t released they were taken off a spent hamas fighter, big difference.
Why would the shit IDF want to uphold the top secret designation Hamas set for this intel??? It’s old and irrelevant outside of shining more light on the overall intentions
Funny how a soldier behind enemy lines has top secret plans with him, printed out, unfolded and uncrinkled, coincidentally targeting the exact thing that makes people hate them. Sounds all very plausible and totally not planted.
That’s assuming that they’re authentic and not propaganda pieces…
Critical thinking, know what it is? This is not a sports game nor a movie, there is no bad guy and good guy. Just read up a bit on this story and you will see how shady the source is.
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the documents too?
Smoking gun evidence in an active war zone should be taken with a huge grain of salt.
That doesn’t mean they can’t be authentic, it just means you shouldn’t just assume they are at this point.
And when Hamas claims to have recovered from a dead IDF officer the plans for a tactical nuclear strike, or chemical warfare in Gaza, that should also be taken with a grain of salt.
Assume the majority of OMG LOOK AT THIS EVIDENCE type of information from the ground is being shaped, or fabricated, by information operation teams from one side of this conflict, or the other.
That doesn’t mean OMG SMOKING GUN stories can’t be genuine, just that you shouldn’t automatically assume they are.
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Hamas would never draw up plans and use satellite images!!!
This u?
More like “Hamas would never draw up plans, print out detailed information about their plans on multiple sheets of A4 paper, and keep those detailed plans on them when they leave to execute them like some kind of video game NPC”
What was I supposed to do here? pulls out map and detailed plans Oh yeah, kill civilians! How could I forget?
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If you really think resistance fighters were carrying around a bunch of stapled word documents labelled ‘TOP SECRET’ like some TV villains then I have 10 bridges to sell you. Insane levels of deception here
The union won Gettysburg because they bagged a guy who was carrying Robert E. Lee’s secret plans wrapped around cigars, it’s not that crazy
Why is it crazy that they had a plan? If the words top secret did not occur would you change your stance because that’s literally the only thing you pointed out.
Playing devils advocate here, I could see why they would put such a thing on an upcoming plan of attack. Obviously the IDF is not trustworthy but the words top secret are not the issue here lmao
Tf u talking about
It’s the idea that there’s a pristine copy of a Big Evil Secret Plan that the IDF managed to loot off a random corpse that’s unbelievable
They’re just, like, carrying it? They need a reminder of what their BESP is at all times?
TF you smoking?
“resistance fighters”, that’s what we call bloodthirsty terrorists in these strange times?
No we call them the Israeli state of apartheid occupation forces.
that’s what we call bloodthirsty terrorists in these strange times?
And of course hamas sympathizers are going to rebuff this evidence as ‘another lies’.
I’m impressed by Hamas having a documentation classification system and documentation process. Most terrorist organizations specifically don’t write things down because it makes it easier to stop them. So organized!
They control the government of a large body of people. They’re very organized. Most terrorist organizations are. They have to be. They are “disadvantaged” with less resources. If you have a job you probably know the concept of having to “do more with less”
Bruh putting the words top secret (aka don’t share it around) doesn’t mean they have a document classification system
Way to miss the forest for the trees lmao
You seriously thing in 20 goddamn 23 that people in Iran and Palestine don’t have access to maps and the mental wherewithal to tell their boys not to pass around the battle plans?
They aren’t dumb, I don’t know why you’re so fucking set on framing the Palestinians as morons. Shame on you
I think you miss the point. The point is that the documents are clearly fake. Hamas are not sitting there printing full color battle plans labeled top secret, gently folding them, and taking them to the front line.
Define Hamas sympathizers? Do you mean those that support Palestine?
No. He meant those who support Hamas
I have yet to find a single instance of someone on here supporting Hamas, which is why I asked.
Edit: How do you know what he meant?
How do you know what he meant?
Because he said “Hamas sympathizers” in lieu of “Palestinian sympathizers”.
I’ve seen them. Even one of the devs is one
This schizo hate fest isn’t worth the burning of calories.
Oh boy, look at any post from hexbear or lemmygrad. No holds barred supporting Hamas, killing of civilians and terrorism.
Yeah, but both those sites are filled with edgelords and paid trolls/shills, So its not exactly fair use those places as points of facts/sources.
Hell, 4chan is more reputable.
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.ml is operated by the lemmy dev, who is a fullblown tankie.
So its not surprising that its being slowly taken over as a new lemmygrad front.
There really is no true Scotsman…
Keep movin them goalposts!!!
You keep drinkin that koolaid, bro.
I’m sure it’ll do wonders for you.
singe instance on here supporting Hamas
How about lemmy.ml? Just because YOU haven’t seen it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Tf
I’m sure they exist, I just haven’t seen it. And what of it? Those that support the IDF and Israel’s fascist government are just as bad, so…
Free Palestine 🇵🇸
Maybe, but that won’t mean they’re wrong, nor does it mean that they’re right.
Be skeptical of any evidence coming out of an active warzone.You don’t have to dismiss it outright, but you also shouldn’t accept it outright.
There many domains within modern warfare, including the information domain.
Israel, Hamas, Iran, and all of their supporters and proxies, are actively shaping the information domain, both online, and on the ground.
As an example from the other side, you should keep an eye for the Teddy bears in pictures of destroyed buildings in Gaza. Everything is turned to rubble, but Teddy bears and children’s toys have a mystical ability to remain intact, on top of the rubble, and picture perfect.
You don’t have to dismiss it outright, but you also shouldn’t accept it outright.
Why are measured statements like this always so hard for people to fathom?
Because they’re rightfully skeptical of “both sides” arguments, which I understand.
But it’s just a fact that both sides are engaging in heavy, unprecedented, levels of informational warfare.
Insurgencies themselves are basically violent marketing campaigns, they are not won, or lost, on the battlefield.
Which is precisely why everyone should be skeptical of these kind of stories. Not the point of automatic dismissal, but just stored with a few grains of salt, to be reevaluated at a later date, and with more confirmation, or additional credible information.
I suppose that’s a fair point. This is one of the only times the “both sides” argument actually is valid.
Because humans are pathetic emotionally turbulent morons that sometimes manage to act logically
This looks like when Russia found all that evidence laid out on the bed and all those Sims.
Mhmm a top secret attack on a school…
On a Saturday? During Shabbat?
Found it: https://maps.app.goo.gl/HVGPAaCMFHJQsxEg9
Google says it’s a research institute but there are photos of kids on horseback?
Why target a lone school when theres like 15 more in a dense area 6 miles to the north east? Maybe too hard to get too?
Edit: might be a middle school? https://sites.google.com/a/sulam.co.il/daat_herum/home
Edit: or a high school of 100
I’ve marked what I believe is the only school in the immediate area in purple
Edit: There may be a second school, an elementary school, above the purple arrow, in the buildings with the blue “roofs” in the top right.
Probably easy target and sends a chilling message
Warning: serious armchair science going on in my comment here
Probably easy target
I’m guessing this is most of it. Looks like a ~7 minute drive from the border. Actually, to avoid the radar marked on the map they probably came in exactly where I put that purple arrow.
sends a chilling message
Actually I’m saying kinda the opposite. There’s 4 schools 7 minutes south, coulda sent a bigger message.I’m piecing this together as we go. Ok so I checked the distance from Sa’ad to Sderot (30 minutes by car) and while doing so I noticed something.
There was a key on the map I didn’t understand “kibbutz portal”. Well if you were planning on driving from Sa’ad to Sderot the “kibbutz portal” is the road google maps tells you to start at.
So they probably started here, attacked Sa’ad and then took the “kibbutz portal” to Sderot
Edit: Theres 3 directions out, the purple arrow (25), 232 and the “kibbutz portal”. It looks like starting from the purple arrow would allow Hamas to push that town in the direction of the “kibbutz portal”. I’m not convinced 25 is open but I’m basing that 100% on the fact that google maps wont let me force the directions to take that road by dropping a pin
Given that Hamas launched this attack on a Saturday during Shabbat… sure looks like they were targeting schoolchildren at the school, eh?
NBC out here doing their best to protect their correspondents.
Is the IDF taking lessons from the Russians again?
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If you want to kill all Jews anyways, why wait until they reach adulthood?
“The Hamas credo is not just anti-Israel, but profoundly anti-Semitic with racism at its core. The Hamas Charter reads like a modern-day Mein Kampf.” According to the charter, Jewish people “have only negative traits and are presented as planning to take over the world.” The 1988 Charter claimed that the Jews deserved God’s/Allah’s enmity and wrath because they received the Scriptures but violated its sacred texts, disbelieved the signs of Allah, and slew their own prophets.[36] It quotes a saying of Muhammad from a hadith:
The Day of Judgment will not come until Muslims fight the Jews, when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say, ‘O Muslim, O servant of God, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.’ Only the Gharkad tree would not do that, because it is one of the trees of the Jews.
Multiple commentators, including Jeffrey Goldberg and Philip Gourevitch, have identified this passage as incitement to genocide.[8][9]
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What a bunch of propagandistic shit, OP. We all already know Hamas is a terrorist organization who launched a massacre aimed at creating as much shock and horror as possible. Let’s shift the conversation to Israel and what we can, as westerners, advocate for and against.
The US literally has a Zionist president. Biden passionately supports Israel’s Settler Colonialism, Genocide, and excuses their War Crimes. Nothing will be done about this, for years, until voters prove we will vote against this wicked set of beliefs. 70% of Americans support Palestine. Why have we got a Zionist president?
Voters don’t have that much say in who becomes president. The system is rigged. You either get fascist red or diet fascist blue. Until the first past the post system is eliminated it’s going to stay rigged.
American voters are too busy trying to prevent the right from taking over to consider what our only option’s current stance on foreign policy is. Add to that the crippling fact that about half of our voting population actually does want a red flavored fascist take over.
If not for our zionist president, we’d have a dictator wannabe entering his second term. It’s not a good situation.
Edit: I’m not saying this post isn’t propaganda bullshit, just that relying on the American voter to vote on foreign policy morals isn’t going to get you very far.
Ok ykw you are right
Huh?? If you think it’s true then how is reporting this propagandistic? Shall they only post info that isn’t related to the investigations into the attack?
I’m not defending the idf by any means but you really missed the forest for the trees. The conversation has been on Israel and hamas, why are you mad that all reporting isn’t just Israel?
Do you hear yourself lol
a single article discussing findings of the ongoing investigation
What we as westerners can and can’t advocate for
Are you joking? This absolutely has been happening since it popped off but one NBC article and the west has fAiLEd
Give me a fucking break
I’m mad that reporting isn’t on Israel because Hamas’ horrendous attack is now past tense and Israel is now in control of the situation where news is happening basically hourly.
Half of Gaza is expected to evacuate to the south today before Israel is going to - I don’t know what.
If the most present situation isn’t being talked about, then this isn’t a good source of news.
