The Israeli army fired artillery shells containing white phosphorus, an incendiary weapon, in military operations along Lebanon’s southern border between 10 and 16 October 2023.

  • galloog1@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    11
    arrow-down
    31
    ·
    1 year ago

    Define genocide then detail with trustworthy sources why this meets it.

    I’m tired of people pontificating that this is genocide who cannot even define what genocide is. The other side are those that can define genocide but fully trust Hamas sources while distrusting Western sources.

    … You dolt

    • Annoyed_🦀 @monyet.cc
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      20
      arrow-down
      2
      ·
      edit-2
      1 year ago

      From the UN:

      The popular understanding of what constitutes genocide tends to be broader than the content of the norm under international law. Article II of the Genocide Convention contains a narrow definition of the crime of genocide, which includes two main elements:

      There’s a few from Al Jazeera but to prevent collective screeching i left it out.

      • Quokka@quokk.au
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        18
        arrow-down
        3
        ·
        edit-2
        1 year ago

        Wow you can’t just bring up some made up noname nonsense like the UN, they’re antisemitic terrorists!

        I only trust real sources like Israeli newspapers.

        • galloog1@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          3
          arrow-down
          14
          ·
          1 year ago

          There UN source simply defines them at war, not genocide. Name a war that did not produce suffering. The UN source does not show that they are intentionally targeting a people, just that they are suffering as they target the elected Hamas government.

          • grte@lemmy.ca
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            10
            arrow-down
            1
            ·
            1 year ago

            Elected how many years ago? What was the average age in Gaza, again?

            If we want to talk about elected governments, the genocidal Israeli government has much more legitimacy in claiming it represents it’s constituents.

            • galloog1@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              3
              arrow-down
              7
              ·
              1 year ago

              Literally no one is questioning Israel’s legitimacy in government except Hamas. Nobody here in this thread is anyway.

              You still missed the point though as they are not doing collective punishment. Collateral damage is not collective punishment.

              • grte@lemmy.ca
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                7
                arrow-down
                1
                ·
                edit-2
                1 year ago

                The point was you keep mentioning Hamas as an elected government even though that is laughable at this point, whereas the people of Israel seem to be pretty on board with genocide.

                As for collective punishment, I think the entire population of Gaza has been suffering collective punishment for years, but certainly the moment Israel cut off food, power, and water they were engaging in collective punishment. Like really obviously, you’d have to be either really dumb or really dishonest to say otherwise.

                • BartsBigBugBag@lemmy.tf
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  7
                  arrow-down
                  1
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  He’s Israeli, it’s in his material interests to pretend his country isn’t doing exactly what they publicly admit they’re doing.

                • galloog1@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  3
                  arrow-down
                  8
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  I agree that Hamas should not be the government of Palestine and that the people would have difficulty removing them even if they wanted them gone. Who do you suggest should do it? I still do not understand what the legitimacy of the Israeli government has to do with the legitimacy of the Palestinian one.

                  Israel is at war right now. Certainly, the literal laws have changed to that of armed conflict. Making claims against it that do not cite international laws that they are signatory to are irrelevant. I don’t think understanding the legal status of the conflict is me being dumb or dishonest. It certainly shows that I may not be talking on the same level of education or experience. That’s the funny thing about the internet. You never really know exactly who or what you are talking to.

                  • Sunforged@lemmy.ml
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    1
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    Hamas became the leadership in Gaza because Isreal funded religious extremism that became Hamas to oppose the PLO, part of which was the secular democratic socialist Fatah party led by Yassar Arafat.

                    Isreal is responsible for the violence and more violence will not end this conflict unless genocide is the goal.

      • SirToxicAvenger@lemm.ee
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        4
        arrow-down
        9
        ·
        1 year ago

        isnt that’s hamas’s goal though? they want to drive Israeli into the sea and create a new arab caliphate. not going to get there without massive genocide.

      • galloog1@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        6
        arrow-down
        12
        ·
        1 year ago

        Based on those definitions, what Israel went through is considered genocide against them and multiple times including the recent attacks as they absolutely targeted Israeli civilians.

        This is an overly broad definition and includes literally every war ever. Air strikes against seemingly military targets that end up not being military targets does not constitute genocide. Not by a long shot.

        Your UN article simply states that there is suffering. Name a single war where that wasn’t the case. Is all war genocide? Your other articles simply define that they are at war in response to a massive terrorist attack. That is not genocide by this definition as it does not define the difference between a justified defensive war and a genocide.

        Israel was at war the second they were attacked. War is not pretty. It is not genocide. You would be far better off scoping your argument outside of the confines of the current conflict as they were attacked by an elected organization by Palestine.

        • Annoyed_🦀 @monyet.cc
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          13
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          1 year ago

          Based on those definitions, what Israel went through is considered genocide against them and multiple times including the recent attacks as they absolutely targeted Israeli civilians.

          Yes.

          This is an overly broad definition and includes literally every war ever.

          Yes, that’s literally what the Geneva Conventions is about.

          Air strikes against seemingly military targets that end up not being military targets does not constitute genocide. Not by a long shot.

          One casualty, no. Twenty casualty, no, but that might be a war crime. Eight thousands casualty and rising, including hostages, that is a large group. It include targeting refugee camp, place of worship that house refugees, hospital, evacuation route, that is genocide.

          Your UN article simply states that there is suffering. Name a single war where that wasn’t the case. Is all war genocide?

          Terrible argument because that’s not how genocide is defined, 0 point for the mental gymnastic. Genocide is a motive, not all war is genocide. But yes, a lot of war tend to consist the element of genocide because of one stronger group trying to eliminate a weaker group, including Israel - Palestine conflict, where Israel has been oppressing Palestine for decades.

          Your other articles simply define that they are at war in response to a massive terrorist attack.

          Apply the context of the article to the definition of genocide.

          That is not genocide by this definition as it does not define the difference between a justified defensive war and a genocide.

          Genocide did not define whether it’s defensive nor offensive, nor the Geneva Conventions give a shit about how you think it should be. As it stand, being the defensive party does not give them any right to commit the atrocity they’re currently doing.

          Israel was at war the second they were attacked. War is not pretty. It is not genocide.

          Using your line of thinking, Hamas is not genocidal group because war is not pretty.

          You would be far better off scoping your argument outside of the confines of the current conflict as they were attacked by an elected organization by Palestine.

          And in return, they murdered 8000 non-combatant of the people that they successfully dehumanised, just like all the conflict they have with Palestine for decades.

          Holocaust Denial Trope also detailed on what people do to deny the holocaust, but lets swap some letter:

          • Details of the Holocaust Palestinian Genocide Have Been Exaggerated
          • Witness Testimony is Fabricated or Inaccurate
          • Jews Hamas Invented the Holocaust Palestinian Genocide for Financial and Political Gain
          • The Holocaust Palestinian Genocide is a Zionist Hamas Political Tool
          • Jews Palestinian are Responsible for Their Own Persecution

          Wouldn’t be too far off from what is happening today.

    • BassTurd@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      19
      arrow-down
      7
      ·
      edit-2
      1 year ago

      Genocide: the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.

      See the blown up hospital, the blown up camp, the thousands of dead Palestinian civilians, the refugees bombed while trying to use the designated route out, or maybe just the leaked report with details of Israel’s plan to ethically cleanse Palestinians in Gaza.

      Or, idk, just open your fucking eyes. You have to either be a fucking moron or intentionally ignorant, to both be aware of what’s happening over there and still think it’s not genocide.

      Keep your head in the sand if you want. Fucking moron.

      Edit: I’ll concede on the hospital. Anyone care to refute my other points, or maybe touch on today’s (11/1) bombing of the refugee camp?

      • mwguy@infosec.pub
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        10
        arrow-down
        4
        ·
        1 year ago

        See the blown up hospital

        The one Palestinian forced blew up? That’s still standing?

      • BombOmOm@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        7
        arrow-down
        9
        ·
        1 year ago

        See the blown up hospital

        This is exactly the shit people are talking about. Palestine blew up a gathering of people at that hospital, then everyone just takes Palestine’s word for it and yells at Israel for something Palestine did.

        • Annoyed_🦀 @monyet.cc
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          4
          arrow-down
          4
          ·
          1 year ago

          This is exactly the shit people are talking about. Palestine The terrorist group Palestinian Islamic Jihad blew up a gathering of people at that hospital, then everyone just takes Palestine’s Hamas’ word for it and yells at Israel for something Palestine Palestinian Islamic Jihad did.

          ftfy

          • galloog1@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            5
            arrow-down
            11
            ·
            1 year ago

            The elected government of Palestine, Hamas. Yes, that organization. Yet they still are targeting Hamas instead of intentionally enacting collective punishment.

            • Annoyed_🦀 @monyet.cc
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              9
              arrow-down
              2
              ·
              1 year ago

              The elected government of Palestine by the only election since 2006, which at that time the US President is George W. Bush, the one who started the horrible Iraq War, Hamas. Yes, that organization. Yet they still are targeting Hamas instead of and intentionally enacting collective punishment by cutting off water and electricity, cutting aid from international humanitarian organization, and displace home for the millions.

              Ftfy

              • galloog1@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                2
                arrow-down
                6
                ·
                1 year ago

                Israel is at war. Collective punishment is no longer a relevant claim. They have declared war on the government of Palestine, Hamas. They are no longer in competition and are no longer attempting to use these controls to prevent violence. There is nothing illegal or genocidal about it right now while they conduct literal war.

                • Annoyed_🦀 @monyet.cc
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  5
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  Israel is at war. Collective punishment is no longer a relevant claim.

                  Geneva Conventions is literally the treaty meant for oversee war and prevent war crime. You’re speaking out from your ass again.

                  • galloog1@lemmy.world
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    1
                    arrow-down
                    6
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    Cite from it then. You didn’t mention it before. Genocide is defined in far more than just the multiple Geneva conventions and so far no one has shown an understanding of it. Cite from it.

      • galloog1@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        5
        arrow-down
        7
        ·
        1 year ago

        See everyone else’s comments on how inaccurate your statements are. We are not the ones with our heads in the sand. Stop trusting Palestinian government sources. It’s literally Hamas. There’s a reason that they beat the Israelis to the narrative. They do not validate their information. They say whatever makes Israel look bad, no matter what the truth is.