We Asked A.I. to Create the Joker. It Generated a Copyrighted Image.::Artists and researchers are exposing copyrighted material hidden within A.I. tools, raising fresh legal questions.

  • Ross_audio@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    43
    arrow-down
    6
    ·
    9 months ago

    The point is to prove that copyrighted material has been used as training data. As a reference.

    If a human being gets asked to draw the joker, gets a still from the film, then copies it to the best of their ability. They can’t sell that image. Technically speaking they’ve broken the law already by making a copy. Lots of fan art is illegal, it’s just not worth going after (unless you’re Disney or Nintendo).

    As a subscription service that’s what AI is doing. Selling the output.

    Held to the same standards as a human artist, this is illegal.

    If AI is allowed to copy art under copyright, there’s no reason a human shouldn’t be allowed to do the same thing.

    Proving the reference is all important.

    If an AI or human only ever saw public domain artwork and was asked to draw the joker, they might come up with a similar character. But it would be their own creation. There are copyright cases that hinge on proving the reference material. (See Blurred Lines by Robin Thick)

    The New York Times is proving that AI is referencing an image under copyright because it comes out precisely the same. There are no significant changes at all.

    In fact even if you come up with a character with no references. If it’s identical to a pre-existing character the first creator gets to hold copyright on it.

    This is undefendable.

    Even if that AI is a black box we can’t see inside. That black box is definitely breaking the law. There’s just a different way of proving it when the black box is a brain and when the black box is an AI.

    • KeenFlame@feddit.nu
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      6
      arrow-down
      5
      ·
      9 months ago

      But that’s just a lie? You may draw from copyright material. Nobody can stop you from drawing anything. Thankfully.

      • Ross_audio@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        7
        arrow-down
        2
        ·
        9 months ago

        Nobody can stop you.

        But because our copyright laws are so overreaching you probably are breaching copyright.

        It’s just not worth a company suing you for the financial “damages” they’ve “suffered” because you drew a character instead of buying a copy from them.

        Certain exceptions exist, not least “De Minimus” and education.

        You can argue that you’re learning to draw. Then put that drawing in a drawer and probably fine.

        But’s pretty clear cut in law that putting it even on your own wall is a copyright breach if you could have bought it as a poster.

        The world doesn’t work that way but suddenly AI doing what an individual does thousands of times, means thousands times the potential damage.

        Just as if you loaded up a printing press.

        De Minimus no longer applies and the actual laws will get tested in court.

        Even though this isn’t like a press in that each image can be different, thousands of different images breaking copyright aren’t much different to printing thousands of the same image.

          • Ross_audio@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            3
            ·
            9 months ago

            Unfortunately I have studied this.

            So we’ll just have to decide to agree to disagree and hope neither ends up on the wrong side of the law.

            Like I say. Copyright is based upon damage to the copyright holder. It’s quite obvious when that happens and it’s hard to do enough as an individual to be worth suing.

            But making a single copy without permission, without being covered by any exemptions, is copyright infringement.

            Copy right. The right to copy.

            You don’t have it unless you pay for it.

            • KeenFlame@feddit.nu
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              1
              ·
              9 months ago

              In my country we can draw anything and not get sued or break the law. I think that’s pretty good too. It’s when you sell stuff you get into those things.

              • Ross_audio@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                1
                ·
                9 months ago

                If your country is a signatory to the international copyright treaties with most of the Anglosphere (Like the EU, US, AUS, NZ). Then that is not correct.

                You cannot draw anything.

                It’s just never worth suing you over.

                A crime so small it’s irrelevant is almost a legal act. But it’s not actually a legal act.

                • KeenFlame@feddit.nu
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  9 months ago

                  I don’t know what to say. I’m in Sweden. We can draw things for ourselves and no international international company may sue us

                  It’s illegal to have crimes so small and threat to take personal drawings in fact would break several other Swedish laws

          • Flying Squid@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            3
            arrow-down
            1
            ·
            9 months ago

            Much like @Ross_audio, I have studied this intently for business reasons. They are absolutely right. This is not a transformative work. This is a direct copy of a trademarked and/or copyrighted character for the purpose of generating revenue. That’s simply not legal for the same reason that you can’t draw and sell your own Spider-Man comics about a teenager that gains the proportional strength and abilities of a spider, but you can sell your own Grasshopper-Man comics about a teenager that gains the proportional strength and abilities of a grasshopper. As long as you use your own designs and artwork. Because then it is transformative. And parody. Both are legal. What Midjourney is doing is neither transformative nor parody.

            • KeenFlame@feddit.nu
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              1
              ·
              9 months ago

              Yeah it would not be strange to me if that’s how it works in the states, but I think drawing something (not selling, the example was not monetary) does not have international reach

    • Random_Character_A@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      5
      arrow-down
      8
      ·
      9 months ago

      Tough question is, can a tool be infringing anything?

      Although I’d see a legal case if AI companies were to bill picture by picture, but now they are just billing for a tool subscription.

      Still, would Microsoft be liable for my copy-pastes if they charged a penny every time I use it, or am I, if I sell a art piece that uses that infringing image?

      AI could be scraping that picture from anywhere.

      • wewbull@iusearchlinux.fyi
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        8
        ·
        edit-2
        9 months ago

        They are showing that the author of the tool has comitted massive copyright infringement in the process construction of the tool.

        …unless they licensed all the copyright works they trained the model on. (Hint: they didn’t, and we know they didn’t because the copyright holders haven’t licensed their work for that purpose. )

        It doesn’t matter if a company charges or not for anything. It’s not a factor in copyright law.

        • Random_Character_A@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          3
          arrow-down
          9
          ·
          edit-2
          9 months ago

          Can a tool create? It generated.

          Anyway, in case like this, is creation even a factor in liability?

          In my opinion one who gets monetary value first from the piece should be liable.

          NYTimes?

          • wildginger@lemmy.myserv.one
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            10
            arrow-down
            2
            ·
            9 months ago

            “I didnt kill him, officer, my murder robot did. Oh, sure, I built it and programmed it to stab jenkins to death for an hour. Oh, yes, I charged it, set it up in his house, and made sure all the programming was set. Ah, but your honor, I didnt press the on switch! Jenkins did, after I put a note on it that said ‘not an illegal murderbot’ next to the power button. So really, the murderbot killed him, and if you like maybe even jenkins did it! But me? No, sir, Im innocent!”

              • Ross_audio@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                3
                arrow-down
                1
                ·
                9 months ago

                And someone created the AI programming too.

                Then someone trained that AI.

                It didn’t just come out of the aether, there’s a manual on how to do it.

                • Random_Character_A@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  2
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  9 months ago

                  Yes, but in your previous example you person specifically created a machine to stab a specific person.

                  Example would be apt, if you created a program that generates programming for industrial machines to insert things in to stuff and then you uploaded a generated program without checking the code and it stabbed some random guy.

          • Ross_audio@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            9
            arrow-down
            2
            ·
            9 months ago

            So by that logic. I prompted you with a question. Did I create your comment?

            I used you as a tool to generate language. If it was a Pulitzer winning response could I gain the plaudits and profit, or should you?

            If it then turned out it was plagiarism by yourself, should I get the credit for that?

            Am I liable for what you say when I have had no input into the generation of your personality and thoughts?

            The creation of that image required building a machine learning model.

            It required training a machine learning model.

            It required prompting that machine learning model.

            All 3 are required steps to produce that image and all part of its creation.

            The part copyright holders will focus on is the training.

            Human beings are held liable if they see and then copy an image for monetary gain.

            An AI has done exactly this.

            It could be argued that the most responsible and controlled element of the process. The most liable. Is the input of training data.

            Either the AI model is allowed to absorb the world and create work and be held liable under the same rules as a human artist. The AI is liable.

            Or the AI model is assigned no responsibility itself but should never have been given copyrighted work without a license to reproduce it.

            Either way the owners have a large chunk of liability.

            If I ask a human artist to produce a picture of Donald Duck, they legally can’t, even though they might just break the law Disney could take them to court and win.

            The same would be true of any business.

            The same is true of an AI as either its own entity, or the property of a business.

            • Random_Character_A@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              2
              ·
              9 months ago

              I’m not non-sentient construct that creates stuff.

              …and when the copyright law was written there was no non-sentient things gererating stuff.

              • Ross_audio@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                1
                arrow-down
                1
                ·
                9 months ago

                There is literally no way to prove whether you’re sentient.

                Decart found that limitation.

                The only definition in law is whether you have competency to be responsible. The law assumes you do as an adult unless it’s proven you don’t.

                Given the limits of AI the court is going to assume it to be a machine. And a machine has operators, designers, and owners. Those are humans responsible for that machine.

                It’s perfectly legitimate to sue a company for using a copyright breaking machine.

                • Random_Character_A@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  2
                  ·
                  9 months ago

                  You almost seem like you get the problem, but then you flounder away.

                  Law hasn’t caught up with the world with generative programs. A.I will not be considered sentient and they will have this same discussion in court.

                  • Ross_audio@lemmy.world
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    1
                    ·
                    9 months ago

                    It doesn’t matter whether AI is sentient or not. It has a designer, trainer, and owner.

                    Once you prove the actions taken by the AI, even as just a machine, breach copyright liability is easily assigned.

    • LainTrain@lemmy.dbzer0.com
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      9
      arrow-down
      13
      ·
      9 months ago

      It’s not selling that image (or any image), any more than a VCR is selling you a taped version of Die Hard you got off cable TV.

      It is a tool that can help you infringe copyright, but as it has non-infringing uses, it doesn’t matter.

          • Ross_audio@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            2
            arrow-down
            1
            ·
            9 months ago

            Machines aren’t culpable in law.

            There is more than one human involved in creating and operating the machine.

            The debate is, which humans are culpable?

            The programmers, trainers, or prompters?

            • LainTrain@lemmy.dbzer0.com
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              1
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              9 months ago

              The prompters. That is easy enough. If I cut butter with a knife it’s okay, if I cut a person with a knife - much less so. Knife makers can’t be held responsible for that, it’s just nonsense.

              • Ross_audio@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                1
                arrow-down
                1
                ·
                9 months ago

                If you try to bread with an autonomous knife and the knife kills you by stabbing you in the head. Is it solely your fault?

                • LainTrain@lemmy.dbzer0.com
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  arrow-down
                  1
                  ·
                  9 months ago

                  That depends on whether the autonomous knife is designed dangerously and it’s a common occurrence, or whether I was being a moron and essentially rigged it to stab me, akin to asking for copyright material from an AI and getting it (scene from a movie, characters part of intellectual property etc)

                  • Ross_audio@lemmy.world
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    1
                    arrow-down
                    1
                    ·
                    9 months ago

                    So you’re saying if it’s easy to accidentally get copyright images out of this AI by prompting ordinary worlds. Then the AI designers have some questions to answer.

          • Flying Squid@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            1
            ·
            9 months ago

            Because they aren’t doing anything to violate copyright themselves. You might, but that’s different. AI art is created by the software. Supposedly it’s original art. This article shows it is not.

            • LainTrain@lemmy.dbzer0.com
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              1
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              9 months ago

              It is original art, even the images in question have differences, but it’s ultimately on the user to ensure they do not use copyrighted material commercially, same as with fanart.

              • Flying Squid@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                1
                ·
                9 months ago

                If I draw a very close picture to a screenshot of a Mickey Mouse cartoon and try to pass it off as original art because there are a handful of differences, I don’t think most people would buy it.

                  • Flying Squid@lemmy.world
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    1
                    ·
                    9 months ago

                    It has relevance to what counts as an original artwork.

                    This is what you said:

                    It is original art, even the images in question have differences

                    No it is not. They do not have enough differences to be considered original in any court of law.

    • fine_sandy_bottom@discuss.tchncs.de
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      4
      arrow-down
      9
      ·
      9 months ago

      If a human being gets asked to draw the joker, gets a still from the film, then copies it to the best of their ability. They can’t sell that image. Technically speaking they’ve broken the law already by making a copy.

      Is this really true? Breaking the law implies contravening some legislation which in the case of simply drawing a copyrighted character, you wouldn’t be in most jurisdictions. It’s a civil issue in that if some company has the rights to a character and some artist starts selling images of that character then whoever owns the rights might sue that artist for loss of income or unauthorised use of their intellectual property.

      Regardless, all human artists have learned from images of characters which are the intellectual property of some company.

      If I hired a human as an employee, and asked them to draw me a picture of the joker from some movie, there’s no contravention of any law I’m aware of, and the rights holder wouldn’t have much of a claim against me.

      As a layperson, who hasn’t put much thought into this, the outcome of a claim against these image generators is unclear. IMO, it will come down to whether or not a model’s abilities are significantly derived from a specific category of works.

      For example, if a model learned to draw super heros exclusively from watching marvel movies then that’s probably a copyright infringement. OTOH if it learned to draw super heroes from a wide variety of published works then IMO it’s much more difficult to make a case that the model is undermining the right’s holder’s revenue.

      • Ross_audio@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        8
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        edit-2
        9 months ago

        Copyright law is incredibly far reaching and only enforced up to a point. This is a bad thing overall.

        When you actually learn what companies could do with copyright law, you realise what a mess it is.

        In the UK for example you need permission from a composer to rearrange a piece of music for another ensemble. Without that permission it’s illegal to write the music down. Even just the melody as a single line.

        In the US it’s standard practice to first write the arrangement and then ask the composer to licence it. Then you sell it and both collect and pay royalties.

        If you want to arrange a piece of music in the UK by a composer with an American publisher, you essentially start by breaking the law.

        This all gives massive power to corporations over individual artists. It becomes a legal fight the corporation can always win due to costs.

        Corporations get the power of selective enforcement. Whenever they think they will get a profit.

        AI is creating an image based on someone else’s property. The difference is it’s owned by a corporation.

        It’s not legitimate to claim the creation is solely that of the one giving the instructions. Those instructions are not in themselves creating the work.

        The act of creating this work includes building the model, training the model, maintaining the model, and giving it that instruction.

        So everyone involved in that process is liable for the results to differing amounts.

        Ultimately the most infringing part of the process is the input of the original image in the first place.

        So we now get to see if a massive corporation or two can claim an AI can be trained on and output anything publicly available (not just public domain)without infringing copyright. An individual human can’t.

        I suspect the work of training a model solely on public domain will be complete about the time all these cases get settled in a few years.

        Then controls will be put on training data.

        Then barriers to entry to AI will get higher.

        Then corporations will be able to own intellectual property and AI models.

        The other way this can go is AI being allowed to break copyright, which then leads to a precedent that breaks a lot of copyright and the corporations lose a lot of power and control.

        The only reason we see this as a fight is because corporations are fighting each other.

        If AI needs data and can’t simply take it publicly from published works, the value of licensing that data becomes a value boost for the copyright holder.

        The New York Times has a lot to gain.

        There are explicit exceptions limited to copyright law. Education being one. Academia and research another.

        All hinge into infringement the moment it becomes commercial.

        AI being educated and trained isn’t infringement until someone gains from published works or prevents the copyright holder from gaining from it.

        This is why writers are at the forefront. Writing is the first area where AI can successfully undermine the need to read the New York Times directly. Reducing the income from the intellectual property it’s been trained on.

        • wewbull@iusearchlinux.fyi
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          4
          ·
          9 months ago

          AI is creating an image based on someone else’s property. The difference is it’s owned by a corporation.

          This isn’t the issue. The copyright infringement is the creation of the model using the copywrite work as training data.

          All NYT is doing is demonstrating that the model must have been created using copywrite works, and hence infringement has taken place. They are not stating that the model is committing an infringement itself.

          • Ross_audio@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            4
            arrow-down
            1
            ·
            9 months ago

            I agree, but it is useful to ask if a human isn’t allowed to do something, why is a machine?

            By putting them on the same level. A human creating an output vs. an AI creating an output, it shows that an infringement has definitely taken place.

            I find it helpful to explain it to people as the AI breaching copyright simply because from that angle the law can logically be applied in both scenarios.

            Showing a human a piece of copyright material available to view in public isn’t infringement.

            Showing a generic AI a piece of copyright material available to view in public isn’t infringement.

            The infringing act is the production of the copy.

            By law a human can decide to do that or not, they are liable.

            An AI is a program which in this case is designed to have a tendency to copy and the programmer is responsible for that part. That’s not necessarily infringement because the programmer doesn’t feed in copyright material.

            But the trainer showing an AI known to have a tendency to copy some copyright material isn’t much different to someone putting that material on a photocopier.

            I get many replies from people who think this isn’t infringement because they believe a human is actually allowed to do it. That’s the misunderstanding some have. The framing of the machine making copies and breaching copyright helps. Even if ultimately I’m saying the photocopier is breaching copyright to begin with.

            Ultimately someone is responsible for this machine, and that machine is breaking copyright. The actions used to make, train, and prompt the machine lead to the outcome.

            As the AI is a black box, an AI becomes a copyright infringing photocopier the moment it’s fed copyright material. It is in itself an infringing work.

            The answer is to train a model solely on public domain work and I’d love to play around with that and see what it produces.