Hi all! As promised, here is the proposed text of the newest version of the rules. The staff has gone through like eight drafts and literally thousands and thousands of matrix posts to get here, so please be kind. You can see @limeey’s comment on the transparency post if you want more insight into how this sausage was made.
We are opening these rules to commentary from the community before they go into effect. To be clear, this isn’t a vote, but we will take all community feedback into account and answer whatever questions we can before finalizing anything.
Please keep in mind that we are not Reddit, we do not have Reddit’s resources, and safety and consent are our priorities.
I’ll post the draft in two parts in two comments: The new sidebar, and the FAQ/clarifications page.
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So I understand the prioritizing safety for legal reasons. But I don’t get why you’re so concerned with staying federated with non-NSFW instances. Making a different account for NSFW content is very common, and other NSFW instances are unlikely to be very concerned about fringe (but legal) kink stuff and want to defederate.
If for example lemmy.world (or beehaw if they haven’t already) defed’d this instance, why do we care?
The purpose of the lemmyverse is be federated as a platform overall. If you aren’t at least attempting federation with other instances you’re more or less just a forum (imo)
That and it would cripple the instance. If every single instance defederated from us, user growth would stagnate. Seeing the content federate into all incentivizes people to join in and engage.
Isn’t a forum, as a concept, exactly what each Lemmy instance is?
As for growth, you will grow organically without explicit federation with non-nsfw instances. Lemmeynsfw is the porn Lemmy right now. You don’t need to have your porn popping up elsewhere for users to find you.
The content of this instance is such that:
- User’s are likely to create porn alts
- User’s are going to actively seek you out
Which means growth is guaranteed. Nevermind that explicitly trying to grow a community through non-organic means (where the community needs to make concessions for growth) harm communities instead of making them better.
On a semi-related note, I created a tool to check which instances have defederated a certain Lemmy server. It works by getting the servers linked instance list, and for each of those check linked instance list, to see if the first server is blocked. It takes (quite) a few minutes to run, and it only ever hits each server once or twice, so it’s pretty chill resource-wise.
As a side-effect, you can also use it to check which of the linked servers are offline in any way, so you could defederate those yourself to limit the amount of needless retries.
As I said, It can take a while to run, so I’ll report back once the script is done :)
Okay, that took a little longer than expected. Here’s the confirmed list of Lemmy services that have defederated from LemmyNSFW:
partizle.com aussie.zone lemmy.ml feddit.de lemmy.intai.tech lemmy.douwes.co.uk lemmy.serverfail.party talk.kururin.tech dormi.zone lemmy.tillicumnet.com feddit.dnico.io lemmy.procrastinati.org crystals.rest mlem.lea.moe lemmygrad.ml lemmy.design pcglinks.com discuss.divergentparenting.space dmv.social distress.digital i.d0ntknow.me lemmy.hqueue.dev borg.chat forkk.me lemthony.com lemmy.bleh.au on.syrma.cc lemmy.ecliptik.com ducks.dev udclemmy.xyz lemmy.starmade.de lemmy.calebmharper.com lemmy.dangilbert.eu lemmonade.marbledfennec.net bigfoot.ninja techy.news lemiverse.xyz geddit.social lemmy.safe-internet.org sopuli.xyz lemmy.federate.cc chat.maiion.com poptalk.scrubbles.tech lemmy.borlax.com lemmyfly.org civilloquy.com leddit.social surlesworld.com lemmy.fromshado.ws lemmy.mb-server.comWe are aware of this list and it should be noted that most (or nearly all) of these are due to either legal concerns for hosting links to pornography in their host country or due to “no porn” rules. :)
Which seems fine, why would lemmynsfw try and federate with lots of other non-nsfw instances anyways? People are driven to making nsfw alts, and porn is one of those content types that enjoy long term organic growth without any advertising as users explicitly seek it out.
A large portion of instances do see a place for properly managed NSFW content in the federation.
I use my lemmynsfw account for posting on regular communities all the time! I kinda think it’s funny.
I don’t know what hot lunch is and I am too afraid to ask
Dude it’s right there in the emoji
Oh…oh no
Temporary Content Restrictions: The following content is temporarily restricted: Hot lunch (🤮), blood, scat, CNC.
How does your team distinguish between CNC and hard/brutal BDSM?
Is hard/brutal BDSM allowed or not? (temporarily)
Depends. Is it kink.com, assylum, pascalsubsluts, hookuphotshot or any number of other reputable, aboveboard producers with a minimum number of strikes against them? Probably fine. Is it like some random grungy dungeon with no identifiable people and no way of sourcing? It has probably got to go.
If I’m interpreting your intent correctly, it sounds like you have an issue with (actual) noncon rather than the depiction of CNC in general.
If this is the case, I would suggest rewording the rules to reflect your intent. For example, you could say: “CNC from an unverified or untrustworthy source is not allowed”, although I’m not sure how this affects your stance on fictional/illustrated dubcon/noncon, such as Game of Thrones noncon or CNC hentai.
Otherwise, you run into issues of people (like myself) reporting everything that looks like CNC.
You’re conflating two things. Our ethical stance is against actual noncon. Ethically, we don’t have a problem with CNC as long as it’s actually, verifiably CNC. CNC is prohibited now because of federation issues, not because we have an issue with the depiction of CNC in general.
Once we’re able to keep certain things from federating, whether that’s via @limeey’s NSFW+ tag or some other method, CNC is probably the first thing we’ll phase back in.
So is fictional/hentai CNC and rough/brutal BDSM allowed or not? (for the time being)
Not, and allowed assuming it doesn’t cross over into CNC, respectively. You can consent to being tied up and bastinado’d without pretending it’s NC, after all.
Huh, I do think the separation is harder than you make it out to be.
Technically, any kind of BDSM that necessitates the use of safewords is in the territory of CNC, in the sense that if someone says “stop” and you ignore them yet you do respond if they say “pineapple” – that’s very clearly consensual nonconsent.
Rape play is a subset of CNC, but it’s not the only kind of CNC that’s out there.
I didn’t say it was an easy separation, just that separation was possible. there’s grey area just like any other type of human interaction, but there’s also stuff that is definitely black and definitely white.
Removed by mod
I have a few on my personal list, but overall this is a much larger project being handled on the developer side of things. There’s a lemmy project matrix chat and more specifically, also a lemmy mod tools matrix chat. You’d want to check in there for the complete list.
Removed by mod
Okay, im trying to help mod c/brutal and c/humiliation. I like this instance and im really into the content off those communities. (Cant wait for CNC to arrive :) But im not some studio connaisseur, totally willing to educate myself on the subject but ill need some resources to do this right. I can start googling of course but cant you just point me in the right direction?
That’s not really my wheelhouse tbh? I listed a few fairly reputable studios and producers above, but you’d really want a subject matter expert to get into the nitty gritty.
Fair enough,
its not easy to untangle that mess though and i hope if problems arise wih the content posted on of those subs that we can constructivly solve them together with the admins. I would hate to see that content get completely banned.
Sidenote: the stuff i read so far made my faith in humanity a little weaker. Ethical porn shouldnt be so difficult to make and find.
For OC posts in c/gonewild and similar communities, mods of that forum must comply with our verification requirements. For OC, verification counts as sourcing which means it is not strictly necessary but strongly encouraged. We plan to implement a sitewide verification procedure soon, but until we do it’s down to each community’s mods.
I assume “we plan to implement a sitewide verification procedure” doesn’t mean it will be needed to use the instance, but just for any posting or mod work.
This is probably obvious, but I make OC AI art (as OC as you can consider AI art haha). Does this require any verification or is that only for OC photos of real people?
@MikeyMongol@lemmynsfw.com can you edit the post with links to the comments with the proposed rules?
Lots of scrolling for mobile users.
Thanks!done
Couple questions:
- There was back and forth of “aged up” r34 characters being banned. What is the final decision on this? Should we expect admins to strike down any content of cartoon, comic book, manga, anime, and video game characters that don’t have a current canonical age matching the age they are currently being depicted as?
(Annoyingly, 99% of the content that comes out of Japan is about teens and has to be aged up. Even if they don’t even look or act like highschoolers! Exhibit A: Jojo’s Bizzare Adventure Part 3-5)
- Is a slime considered a fantasy animal?
(I’m partially asking this because I think this rule/question is fucking hilarious, but also because it would basically nuke a fairly active community on here.)
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I think this falls under “We’ll know it when we see it”, subjective judgement call. Again, I’m not a hentai guy, so if it were up to me I’d probably get rid of like 80% of it, but we have to start trusting our mods to make those calls.
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Is it a humanoid slime?
Not the original asker, but to clarify the first question: should I take this to mean that aged up are possibly acceptable in this revision as opposed to a complete ban?
I’m not asking this to start posting “oppai loli” content or w/e, but moreso content that provide better context clues for the characters being older:
- Easy Case - Characters sharing a night together after a long day of college classes
- Hard Case - Characters that are physically older and have anatomical proportions resembling an adult
I’m mostly asking this as a moderator since I’ve taken care to ensure characters depicted in my posts are either canonically 18 and up or at least appear sufficiently old enough (if no canonical age is available) to make it easy on myself, but I’d like to have a better idea of where to draw the line when moderating posts from others, if possible, in a way that suits this instance. (Thanks!)
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Understandable.
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I think what I have seen mostly posted was humanoid slimes.
I think humanoid slimes are fine. They’re basically like furries, but for amoebas not wolves and badgers and shit.
Lol I love this comment! Mwah! 👄
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Treat all members with respect and obtain consent when sharing explicit content involving others.
Does that mean bot posts are finally gone?
not necessarily, but we would rather not have bot content. Remember, no one is making money on this instance, and I don’t really get what the point of bot content is other than to “provide content” - if the idea is to generate “karma” to then sell the account then that is no bueno. But people who want to provide content to their com, I don’t necessarily mind that… it’s a weird issue. I just don’t get why someone would bot content maliciously
I’d like to add that we are specifically looking into improved community identification methods. One on the table is a “nsfw+” concept for topics that may not be “mainstream” but aren’t “illegal” - scat, pee, hentai beast, etc. These we would rather not show “on the main feed” or maybe even not federate, but we’re not opposed to hosting. It’s just that we want to make the instance appealing to the regular person. For those who want their “extreme” content - as long as it’s legal, I think we all agree we don’t necessarily mind it.
I’m open to hearing the community on this. With that said, “loli/shota” content where the object of eroticism is specifically that “they are a prepubescent child” will never be allowed. Don’t start with that.
I only have one kink, and that’s novelty. So I am missing some of the more “diverse” content (the consensual legal stuff obviously!).
The internet has plenty of places for “regular” porn, but only on communities like this (and before Reddit) that I’ll discover that I’m turned on by 1-legged clowns eating skittles out of a girls ass.
Understand the need to make it welcoming to all, but hope you guys find a way to keep it weird while you’re at it!
1-legged clowns eating skittles out of a girls ass
You are a poet
shouldnt it just read “they are a child” is not allowed?
their pre or post pubescent status doesnt seem to be relevant
The problem here is hentai content based of anime characters. Most of these characters are under 18 canonically and thus any erotic content wouldn’t be allowed under current ruling even though they look like and act like adults.
Then there’s the gray zone for characters that have progressed or regressed in age in some way, a good example is Ciel from the visual novel Tsukihime who technically is past her 20s, but her body stopped aging at 26 due to lore reasons. Under current ruling it would be hard to be certain whether it’s allowed or not even though she both looks and act like an adult (although a weird one as Nasu can’t write a proper R18 scene to save his damn life). Another issue is aged up variants of characters where their canonical age is way below 18 but the art depicts them as above it.
That said I do stand by enforcing an age limit for real people, but when it comes to fictional characters (and anime characters in particular) it makes more sense to go by appearance, this rule would include all these characters while still disallowing Loli/Shota which is the main concern for other instances (see burggit for example). This draws a clear line with less ambiguity than “they are a child” as not everyone may have the same opinion and this could lead to more things getting hit in the crossfire than is necessary, yes I know this leaves characters like Megumin in the gray, but it’s not as big of a gray zone as “not a child”
I think the wording of the rules in the proposal are fine, as there is no specific mention of “canonical age”.
Boruto drawn as a 50-year-old may not be canonical (which is often the case in fanfiction anyways), but it’s evident from the picture that their age is not 12 (in the picture).
So what about Midna from Zelda or Rebecca from Cyberpunk? Both are very popular in fandom. It also shirks around the question of the 3000-year old loli dragon. Technically that would be allowed.
Edit: Eh the FAQ is a pretty decent way of solving the issue. I’m ok with it.
Rebecca from Cyberpunk is clearly characterized as an adult who is small due to body modification and, IDK, hormones? Anyway she’s not a child in any meaningful way. I see no problem there. I’m not a zelda guy so I can’t speak to that other example.
Another issue is aged up variants of characters where their canonical age is way below 18 but the art depicts them as above it.
Here’s a better way of thinking about it. Isn’t it alarming that the moment Game Freak release artwork of a new female playable character, every rule-34 artist is rushing to draw aged-up lewd art of them? All but one main series Pokémon game has you playing a ten-year-old, with Black/White being the only exception where Hilbert and Hilda are 15…
And another thing I should definitely raise to the admins, current rules of “no aged-up characters” are very inconsistently enforced, if not wholly unenforced on this instance.
TBF, the current rules were made in haste and have only been around a short time to mitigate things getting out of hand, so people could think with clear heads instead of putting out fires. also mods are kind of on a churn since we are still dealing with a user base that sees the new shiny and wants to do something with it before moving on (for various reasons, nothing against those people). so there are the occasional community that has a mod that has not done any posting or commenting in 20 days and active mods are trying to figure stuff out with limited tooling.
not to mention that the new rules go some way to helping with that, leaving the mods/admins to interpret the context of the piece and its surrounding media to determine and if any one of them feels it should be removed, it will be. i also agree with @kellySunshine in this message thread
Hentai is on the same level as scat? Fruedian slip much?
Depending on how far the noncon rule applies, I foresee an issue with media sharing.
Very little media will have explicit consent to be shared in our communities, or even social media in general. If we interpret the sharing as part of what you consent to (as is the case with OC but not revenge porn), no found media can be allowed.
If we allow the commonly used fair/similar use principle (found media may typically be shared in the same type of setting it was found) - how do we differentiate between found porn and found revenge porn?
If we mod as a response to reports, as in: we allow it until someone reports this being wrongful content, the rules will be fine, but obscure or poorly modded communities risk becoming seedy and drag the whole instance reputation down.
But these thoughts can’t be novel, has anyone checked if there’s a well tested out best practice to keep mods, community and admin safe?
Consent would also be an issue in that a lot of porn stars have actively stated that certain scenes they have done were not at all consensual.
Yup and if people post those scenes and we’re aware and reasonably sure that they’re noncon, they will be removed. We actually have a (very incomplete) list of specific studios, performers, etc. we are not going to tolerate for that exact reason. Currently we’re debating whether to make that list public or not, because on the one hand we don’t want to be like “if you want rape and underage content, google these terms” but on the other hand it might prevent people from posting something innocently that they didn’t know was bad.
Please share that list. I have no clue which studio’s have consent issues.
Would second this. On one hand I’m terrified to find out; I’m conflicted enough already about the morality of a lot of the porn industry, but sticking my head in the sand won’t help.
I think the number of decent human beings who would use the list to actively blacklist and advocate against bad studios is far greater than the number of diseased individuals who would use it to look up the content for “fun”.
I say share it privately, unless the victims have asked it to be shared widely.
Respect and Consent: Treat all members with respect and obtain consent when sharing explicit content involving others.
Does this mean that we are not allowed to post other OC’s content here without their knowledge/consent? what about crossposting a post that an OC has made in a community to other communities within this instance, what about to places outside of this instance?
What if the person/people involved in the post are not members here of this lemmy instance, but elsewhere in fediverse or websites elsewhere - does it make it ok to post their OC then without consent simply because they are not “members”?
What about unattributed photos/images grabbed off the web. How do we get consent?
[Addition] Are moderators primarily responsible for enforcing this rule and banning/removing content posts? Can moderators be reported/removed from comms for NOT enforcing these rules for posters and by allowing posters to ignore this rule and allow such content in their comms?
Does this mean that we are not allowed to post other OC’s content here without their knowledge/consent?
Yup, if we find out about it, we will remove that image. repeat offenses will result in suspensions or bans. Keep in mind we have no way of knowing whether or not you have consent, so we will assume that you do unless we have reason to believe otherwise.
what about crossposting a post that an OC has made in a community to other communities within this instance,
Super easy to get permission for that, super easy for OP to call you on it if you don’t. Just ask!
What if the person/people involved in the post are not members here of this lemmy instance, but elsewhere in fediverse or websites elsewhere - does it make it ok to post their OC then without consent simply because they are not “members”?
Nope.
What about unattributed photos/images grabbed off the web. How do we get consent?
So this is a great question. The very base level of consent we’re looking for is “is this person OK with being naked on the internet”. If we think that that’s missing – if it’s revenge porn, leaked, deepfake, straight up noncon, or if it’s ambiguous – then we will pull the image. If we think the person is OK with being naked on the internet, then we’ll probably let it pass unless we have more info. Like I have no idea if that person has licensed this photo CC share alike or all rights reserved, if they want people to spread it around or they don’t, and I’m not going to bother investigating because I have a life outside of this site. If that person ever pops up and says hey, this is pirated content, please remove it, I will comply.
[Addition] Are moderators primarily responsible for enforcing this rule and banning/removing content posts? Can moderators be reported/removed from comms for NOT enforcing these rules for posters and by allowing posters to ignore this rule and allow such content in their comms?
Yes, and eventually yes though we would try to work with the mod to solve the issue first. Removal would be a last resort.
Thanks much. This helps. While I personally don’t post other OC’s content, I mod several communities where the content mix will likely become dominated by mostly OC, so your answers are a good guide for future posters into the communities.
Just as an aside, I’ve had the following rule on the OC focused subreddits I have on Reddit, mainly to respect OC creators, and at the same time allows us to weed out karma farmers and repost bots:
from r/butterflywings sidebar NEW- If you find a post of an awesome labia posted by an amateur OC poster, please invite the poster to directly post here. We will no longer allow xposts of such content here, without the OP’s consent. If you already have obtained such consent, please add a comment into the post such as “(x)posted with u/<redditor>'s consent”.
I plan on adding same rule here to various communities I mod.
I see hentai being a hot button issue. Since the vast majority of anime girls are canonically under 18 and even ones without strict ages (for originally drawn content) often obviously look underage or have features which make them look underage. (smooth faces with big eyes, flat chests, short stature.) And let’s not forget the large portion of anime characters which are basically designed to look as underaged as possible, but with unrealistically large breasts glued on to say “oh look they’re clearly over 18.”. How will this sort of content be handled? I know you say “you’ll know it when you see it.” but what about cases like these?
Don’t even always have to be glued on. Had a girl I went to school with that had unrealistically large boobs already at 13-14. She was not overweight or anything but was already sporting a D-cup at 15.
Safe to say she was ogled by many teenage boys… and adults.
It’s this exact question that made us seriously consider just banning hentai altogether. That would have been the safer move, for sure, but we were worried it would cut off too many people from a safe, accessible place to do porn things.
So context matters, right? Like we’re going to have to trust that the mods of hentai communities are good at hentai, so they know better than a clueless layperson what’s actually supposed to be underage and what isn’t. For me, looking at hentai as a guy that watched Ninja Scroll a bunch when he was 15 and then never really went back to that well, there’s stuff that’s obviously forbidden, stuff that obviously isn’t forbidden, and stuff that falls in the middle where I have to be like “Well, I don’t know who that is, if their show is aimed at kids, if they’re supposed to be a kid, if within the context of hentai that outfit and those visual cues indicate underage or not, so I guess I have to trust someone that is more of an expert”. Because if you force me to make that choice, I’m going to err on the side of caution and nuke everything that’s more questionable than not, which is probably like 75% of all hentai.
But with a knowledgeable mod team, if they tell me that something isn’t underage and isn’t meant to be underage, I’m likely to trust their judgement even if I myself as an ignorant not-a-fan-of-big-eyes-small-mouth-tentacle-sex-cartoons would have made a different call. Unless they start making blatantly bad calls, in which case then we consider taking more drastic action, we are going to defer to the experts.
There are also issues of cultural imperalism and racial bias involved, right? Like studies show that Americans of different races consistently rate depictions of black people as older than they really are and asian people as younger than they really are, and on top of that trying to overlay Western artistic values on top of Japanese cultural constructions can be kind of fraught (and I used to live in Japan, where at 15 I was 6’ and 180 lbs. I was much larger than like 99% of the the native population and they all thought I was a grown-ass man, so I know how that kind of thing works albeit in reverse).
While I understand the logic wrt the concerns about the content of hentai, I do find it interesting that it’s so prominent in the discussion of safety issues.
To me, it’s always felt “safer” than real-life content because a lot of the big risks go away. I don’t have to consider whether the actors were coerced, or whether they would have been able to stop a scene if uncomfortable, or whether they regret putting that content out there and so on.
As a consumer of hentai or similar, it becomes a lot more reasonable to say, “I don’t know what the imaginary background of this character is, but I’m interpretive them as an adult, so I’m all good”, or “Did they really give their consent to dick-cthulhu? Of course they did! Who wouldn’t!?” because I can’t really be meaningfully wrong about a imaginary character.
Whatever the morality of, I guess let’s say, fictional immorality, the potential harm from “real” porn just seems so much larger than the potential harm from drawings and writing. However much I enjoy seeing real human beings doing delightful things to each other, if the only porn on the internet was hentai and dirty stories, I’m inclined to think it’d probably be an overall win in terms of harm reduction, just because it doesn’t require real people to be doing the stunts. So it’s interesting that the fictional stuff seems to be so top of mind when we talk about safety.
Although, I imagine that’s likely because in the discussions of rule-setting the issues around “real” porn are talked about far less, because who’s really going to make a good-faith argument that’s pro sharing images of abuse of real people.
(Also found your point about cultural imperialism interesting! An angle on the topic I’d not considered before)
Listen, if you’re asking for my personal, non-admin opinion? IDGAF if a fictional character with a fictional age in their fictional teens gets fictionally gangbanged without fictional consent by fictional pack of giant mutant beavers. None of it is real, nobody’s rights are actually getting violated, and while I understand that it may turn a lot of people off, whether or not a kink is popular shouldn’t be the basis on which we judge it.
BUT that isn’t the environment we’re in here. That type of content is distasteful enough that we a) risk defederation, and b) risk alienating a large proportion of our other users, and c) risk attracting the kind of users that we don’t want if we allow that kind of content in. There are places on the fediverse where that kind of content is not only allowed but encouraged, and that’s where people who are into that stuff can go.
I really wish we could be all things for all people, and if this were just MikeyMongolNSFW.com the rules would look a lot different – but we aren’t, and we aren’t, and they don’t.
Really good stuff. But the FAQ doesn’t mention how one would go about removing content. Whether it’s the original author/artist or a victim of revenge porn.
This is a good point. Currently only admins can “purge” and so we’ll need to implement a mechanism that gives mods a way to delete, prevent modlog link to the source image, and request admin purge. I’ll add this to our list.
Are there any rules about copyright? Many porn studios do not endorse the distribution of their videos/photography off their official website (paywalled content).
We will honor any DMCA claims and any requests from studios to try to proactively keep their content off of our servers. If someone links to an outside host, there’s less we can do about that. DMCA reporting procedures are in process now.
Will you have a procedure for appeal? A while ago a tweet I made was taken down because someone DMCA’d it as part of their onlyfans, but it was a picture of me
Generally, yes? You can contact an admin if you think that the takedown is in error.
Minor wording change suggestion:
No Rules Lawyering: Admin/Moderator decisions are final and arguing with them can result in a suspension or ban of your account and removal of your content.
