• GolfNovemberUniform@lemmy.ml
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    8 months ago

    Any government/country is actually just a kind of service (you pay taxes and get different goods from it). Every person should have the right to choose the provider of this service (change the country) or completely refrain from it. It means that mandatory military service is no less than slavery. People are not guilty for being born in a country they don’t want to fight for (or that they don’t want to fight at all)

    • tillimarleen@feddit.de
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      8 months ago

      I think you are on the right track with your ideals of the world, but I also guess you kinda know that this is not how states operate. Of course there are different types of states, but if you think of democracies, they are also not service providers to their citizens. On the contrary. Democratic states are the abstraction of all the private interests of their citizens. This is what they protect and advance. What arises out of that is that occasionally these interests will suggest a war is what the nation desires.

      • GolfNovemberUniform@lemmy.ml
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        8 months ago

        I do not believe in “nation’s interest”. That’s the thing that made USA an aggressive state. It also means that the minorities’ opinions are completely rejected. And yk politicians often like to do what people didn’t ask them to do. Democracy is good but the right of choosing the country and freely leaving one must always be there

        • tillimarleen@feddit.de
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          8 months ago

          yes, I also don‘t believe in the nation‘s interest, yet it somehow pretty brutally exists. Something‘s got to grow, somethings got to give.

            • tillimarleen@feddit.de
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              8 months ago

              At first you got to have a good analysis of how society and the economy works. Unfortunately this already is a tricky thing, because not everybody agrees.

              • GolfNovemberUniform@lemmy.ml
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                8 months ago

                Of course not everybody agrees. And we shouldn’t force them to agree. But it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try to make the world better for everyone. Ik it sounds naive but I’m just getting into all of this. Now I’m not an expert at all. I think you get the main idea. I’m not capable of detailing it very much yet

                • NuclearDolphin@lemmy.ml
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                  8 months ago

                  I think the point they are trying to hint at is that it makes sense to try and understand the emergent forces that culminate in events as horrific as war.

                  You may “not believe in national interests” but something closely resembling that is a force governing social behavior.

                  So while it is important to pass moral judgements on these phenomena, you will be more effective at doing so if you can abstractly evaluate them absent moral judgement. Just as you couldn’t coherently understand an ecology if you cannot accept obligate predators as a concept because of the moral implications of predation.

                  We will all differ in our moral and strategic assessments, but we all cohabit the same world, in which we can all recognize common truths arising from nature.

      • ghost_of_faso2@lemmygrad.ml
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        8 months ago

        What arises out of that is that occasionally these interests will suggest a war is what the nation desires.

        I think its pretty wrong to suggest wars happen as a bottom up democratic, abstracted process rather than by the upper class imposing it on us.

      • InternetCitizen2@lemmy.world
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        8 months ago

        Democratic states are the abstraction of all the private interests of their citizens.

        I am not sure what this means, can you clarify a bit?

        • tillimarleen@feddit.de
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          8 months ago

          A democratic state allows its citizens to pursue their private interests. This is only possible though if this is happening in a legal framework, so that the private interests of one citizen don‘t infringe upon the ones of another. The outcome of this consideration then is the abstraction (the specific applied to the universal) of the free will of the citizens. We call it freedom and justice. Others call it the free market.

    • TheYang@lemmy.world
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      8 months ago

      You largely can choose the provider of this service, but they will also choose you (or not).
      And you can not refrain from the service while being in the community of those that don’t refrain. In practice there are (nearly) no places where the community as a whole chooses to refrain.

      If you’re in a country with compulsory military service, make yourself interesting for other countries and leave.

      • ???@lemmy.world
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        8 months ago

        You largely can choose the provider of this service,

        Really? I’m from the Middle East, took me fucking ages to “change the provider”.

        If you’re in a country with compulsory military service, make yourself interesting for other countries and leave.

        Literally not an option for 99% of people.

      • the post of tom joad@sh.itjust.works
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        8 months ago

        unless you’re a US citizen which requires the extra step of completely renouncing your US citizenship or continue paying US taxes (and therefore supporting the military mostly lol) regardless of where you may live in the world

      • GolfNovemberUniform@lemmy.ml
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        8 months ago

        The current situation is not the best in my opinion. I think people who don’t agree with it (like me) should try to change it if possible (peaceful ways are always preferred) instead of adapting to the situation. Though everyone has the right not to fight and not to do anything at all. I’m not saying that fighting the regime you don’t like is mandatory

    • peto (he/him)@lemm.ee
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      8 months ago

      Eh… Close, but they are also a concentration social power (and fundamentally deferred violence), and rights only really exist in the context of social power. You can try and establish your own personal sovereignty but you can be sure that any state that cares to will test that. Sometimes the most you can do is accept that it is able to imprison you or go down fighting, and if you are committed to pacifism the latter is a harder option.

      • GolfNovemberUniform@lemmy.ml
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        8 months ago

        Fighting is the last option. It’s needed when a state becomes usurpated and (unpopular opinion) when the current situation creates an objective high risk for the society or its part and waiting for the election is not really an option (such risk can be exhibited as genocide, severe discrimination or just as creation of a good environment for spreading aggressive ideas. All are dangerous). I think the best thing to do in a democratic society is trying to promote ideas which you think are right so people who agree can join you and you all can have a bigger influence on elections and people who aren’t sure about their views can also find yours appealing. Leave the enforcement part for people who really know what they’re doing and who you’re sure are doing it for the higher good

    • Omega_Haxors@lemmy.ml
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      8 months ago

      No don’t like this. Countries aren’t corporations. Last time we tried that it was called fascism.

      • GolfNovemberUniform@lemmy.ml
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        8 months ago

        Idk much about fascism but I don’t think my views are close to it. Afaik it relies on patriotism and nationalities and similar kind of stuff. I don’t believe in any of that. But I do believe that my English is not the best so it can be easy to misunderstand what I say

        • Omega_Haxors@lemmy.ml
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          8 months ago

          Fascism is the merging of the corporation and the state. Ignore the bullshit redefinition the US pulled out of their ass so that it wouldn’t apply to themselves. Kind of like how liberalism was redefined from class collaboration (what fascism is about) to being about progressivism.

          • GolfNovemberUniform@lemmy.ml
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            8 months ago

            Corporations should never control any states. It is what an evil corporation is. What I meant is that ultimately a government is a service because it has basically the same idea and that it must never force anyone to obey it. Laws can and should exist (it’s one of the important government’s services after all) but military service is a different thing

              • GolfNovemberUniform@lemmy.ml
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                8 months ago

                It’s not, mister. It’s really not. People like you make this world more aggressive. I’m not trying to fight you though. And I don’t have the energy or even the knowledge to explain. Nothing is simple. Hopefully at some point you will understand it. Though it probably would be nice to have this world simplified a little ngl

                • Omega_Haxors@lemmy.ml
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                  8 months ago

                  Must be so easy to be on the side of evil these days. You don’t even need to do anything and you win.