Nine months after Kenneth Smith’s botched lethal injection, state attorney general has asked for approval to kill him with nitrogen
Cruel? Nitrogen asphyxiation is probably one of the most painless, gentle ways to go.
Your trigger that you can’t breathe is a buildup of carbon dioxide. But as you can still exhale, you feel no panic. You just slowly drift unconscious and die. I’d take it over most causes of death.
Execution is cruel, regardless of method.
I’m against the death penalty but if I ever murder a load of people then I’d like to be able able to freely choose death by nitrogen over a life in prison
You know what else is cruel? People killing other people. And the former continuing to live despite their cruelty.
The only rub against execution to me is the risk of executing the innocent. But that is not the concern here. There is no dispute this guy is guilty.
Capital punishment is government sanctioned killing. Outside of war, the government should not have the power to kill anyone.
Let them rot in prison. It’s cheaper anyway.
Abolish capital punishment.
Except them rotting in prison is cruel and unusual punishment. No, they get shelter, 3 meals a day, healthcare when they need it, and even recreation.
And I’m anti-war. It’s ok for innocents to fight and kill each other, but not to kill murderers?
The government shouldn’t be sanctioning killing. Period.
Other than Japan, the US is the only Western country left with this primitive, revenge-based way of looking at crime and punishment. Yet, the US continues to be the most violent country of them all and the murder capital of the Western world.
Usually, when something doesn’t work, we try something else. Time for the US to try something else.
The US is likely more violent due to a combination of corrupt capitalism and lead poisoning.
We do need to try something else, but that something else is in terms of economics, infrastructure, and healthcare, not punishment.
do need to try something else, but that something else is in terms of economics, infrastructure, and healthcare
I definitely agree there, especially in healthcare. What an awful mess in the US when you look at how successful other countries are with universal healthcare.
But I will just never accept capital punishment. It’s such an awful way to seek revenge. It’s especially surprising that conservatives love the concept of government power extending to killing its own citizens. And evangelicals who are commanded by Jesus himself to turn the other cheek and seek forgiveness. I know they are backward on many things, but this seems particularly egregious.
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The only rub against execution to me is the risk of executing the innocent.
Right, so why is that not a total disqualifier then? Even if the risk is fleeting small, there is no taking it back. If it came out later on, dead is dead. Combining that with the fact that executions are obv a psychological cluster fuck for everyone who deals with it, especially the one executed, and the fact that it takes a lot of resources every trial because it’s such an unusually cruel punishment, the arguments for it are dwindling.
Also
You know what else is cruel? People killing other people.
Right but we’re not voting someone in office who can eliminate all homicides in the United States. Things are different for execution.
We could also talk about how this “well tough shit” opinion always fucks over positive and healthy change, but that’s probably the least impactful argument for the folks who still bank on executions as some sort of greater good.
Read the rest of what I said. There is no doubt here. I do think the death penalty should require a higher standard of guilt. But some people, through their actions, simply have forfeited their right to live.
Glad to have it straight from the moral arbiter of the universe, someone who feels they can personally determine, from a safe distance, whether someone has forfeited their life. Otherwise I’d be seriously worried the state was carrying out a horribly immoral practice that regularly results in murder of innocents in order to deliver, at best, the short-lived false victory of vengeance, for the low priceof permanently extinguishing of a human life. Which I’ll remind you doesn’t bring back their victims.
I am allowed moral opinion, same as you.
Doesn’t ‘people killing other people’ include the state killing people? I don’t see how vengeance for a murder solves anything.
No
Why doesn’t it include that?
Because they are carrying out a judgement. We don’t toss prison guards in jail for false imprisonment. We don’t send IRS agents to jail for theft.
Opinion 👆.
Fact: it’s necessary to remove certain people who are prone to violence and incapable of rehabilitation. If you have such a problem with execution, then volunteer your time, money, and home to accommodate a violent psychopath with you forever.
Fact: when we sentence people to death we get it wrong one time in three
Fact: executing someone is more expensive than keeping them in prison for life
Wait why is it more expensive?
The long appeals process we use to try to not execute the innocent costs a lot. It would be cheaper to just imprison them.
Ah, but it doesn’t have to be. There’s lots of inexpensive, humane ways to dispatch a human. How methods like electrocution and lethal cocktail injection were decided on is difficult to understand. Nitrogen, though, is probably the nicest way it could be done. Relatively cheap too, and with zero chance of failure.
The expense is in achieving that blistering 70% correctness rate, not in the way the condemned are killed.
It’s not the method that’s expensive, it’s the appeals process, supposedly to stop innocent people from being executed. And even with all of the appeals, innocent people have still been executed.
Shitty take. There are more than two options here, and suggesting otherwise is using an either-or fallacy as a bad way to try to win an argument.
Opinion 👆.
Fact: punishments can be reversed, if the punished stays alive. Any percentage of unjust executions is irredeemable. Also, there is a lot of evidence that abolishing the death penalty either does not affect the crime rate, or it has a positive effect (see link below).
More opinion: executions have no place in a society that highly values human rights because killing people is the exact opposite of humane. If you think prisoners are monsters and you could never end up in there, watch a documentary about it. If you see what some ppl went through, you know how easy anyone can end up there.
That’s as silly a comment as “if you think Native Americans were wronged, give your house to one,” something else I’ve heard people say. Societal wrongs are not solved by individuals.
Somehow all the countries that don’t allow capital punishment find ways to deal with extremely violent people and don’t have murderers running amok.
Somehow all the countries that don’t allow capital punishment find ways to deal with extremely violent people and don’t have murderers running amok.
Kinda funny that you label the comment you replied to as opinion and then proceeded to dress your own (shitty) opinion up as fact.
Also opinion 👆
Exactly, the headline is just trying to get people to react.
It’s people’s that want to ban the death penalty. They have already have succeeded in getting pharmaceutical companies to stop providing the drugs traditionally used.
Nitrogen, though, would be hard to ban. There is plenty of it, and it is cheap and easy to isolate. So they are arguing hard that it shouldn’t be accepted before they can prove how painlessly effective it can be.
There’s a BBC documentary about it, I think this one:
It’s been a long time since I watched it, but I think the inert gas route is very pleasant. He even gets slightly high/happy from it.
Key takeaways:
- there are surprisingly easy ways to kill people humanely.
- many in the US doesn’t want to kill prisoners humanely, they want it to hurt and be a punishment, not die in a euphoric high
edit: found it:
https://www.documentarytube.com/videos/how-to-kill-a-human-being-2/
Rendered unconcious within 15 seconds, dead within a minute.
In testing pigs would happily stick their heads in a space with pure nitrogen and munch on apples till they lost consciousness, fell over, then stick their heads back in the space with nitrogen to eat some more apples.
What kind of apples asking for a friend
Do you like apples?
Well yeah if we wanted it to be happy and comfortable we’ve had morphine for over a century
Yeah, compared to injecting horrifically painful substances, I don’t see why this is controversial.
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It’s even better than that. Hypoxia causes feelings of euphoria! You get high, pass out, and die. It’s the best way to go, IMO.
It’s human medical experimentation as a punishment that’s cruel and unusual.
It’s not experimentation. People have already died, even accidentally, from inert gas asphyxiation.
If we didn’t study it for this purpose in human subjects before him, it’s experimentation. Reproducing something that has occurred organically in a new context is absolutely experimentation. I don’t know how I can make this simpler.
It’s hardly an experiment if you know the results.
But by that definition, every method was “experimental” at some point. Lethal injection, firing squad, electric chair, gas chamber, hanging, the guillotine, the breaking wheel, being drawn and quartered, scaphism, whatever method had to be done for the first time once. And I would take nitrogen asphyxiation over any of those. Hell, when I start suffering, I sincerely hope that option is available to me so I can go out on my own terms.
Yes. It’s true that every technology was once experimental. But how experiments are done is important. And I certainly hope we’ve moved forward morally since we started executing people. We’re supposed to learn from our mistakes, not use them to justify future ones.
The prisoner volunteered. I’m not sure what better circumstances we could get.
I really think death penalty opponents just don’t want to break the seal. Right now the idea that it’s “experimental” is the only argument against it. Prove it works, and it will quickly become the go-to method.
Opposition got their biggest victory when they got drug companies to stop providing the traditional 3 drug cocktail that has worked for decades. Now they argue every other method is either cruel and unusual (new drugs or older methods) our too experimental (inert gas asphyxiation or opioid overdose) when those latter methods are likely far more humane and much harder to stop up the supply.
Death penalty opponents oppose death penalty…more at 11
First off, I am against the death penalty. I suppose there are hypothetical scenarios were there may be some remorseless person who committed horrific crimes and for whom there is absolutely no doubt of guilt, and maybe then we can justify removing them from the world permanently. But in the real world, the death penalty is not limited to such scenarios. Innocents have been and continue to be executed. This is unacceptable.
But, if we aren’t going to eliminate it, at the very least we can avoid unneeded suffering during it. As I understand it, nitrogen asphyxiation is a comparatively peaceful way to go. So this headline smells of bullshit to me.
It’s experimental. No institutional review board in the country could ethically ask this guy to volunteer for such an experiment, simply because of the coercive power dynamics inherent in asking such a thing of a prisoner. But the government can, by fiat, decide to experiment on him, and you’re ok with that? Even if “nitrogen asphyxiation is a comparatively peaceful way to go,” human medical experimentation qualifies as cruel and unusual punishment; otherwise, what’s the point of banning cruel and unusual punishment?
It isn’t experimental is the way the word is normally used. We know what the effects of nitrogen asphyxiation are. People are accidentally killed by it all the time. If were going to have a death penalty (and I would argue we shouldn’t) then we should seek less cruel ways to do it, which nitrogen asphyxiation is.
It says the method is rejected even by vets. But it only says the nitrogen atmosphere can induce a stressful environment “in some species”. Do these other species have stress triggers when low on oxygen? Is there any further explanation?
It also mentioned this method has been adopted by 3 states. Have there been any successful attempts?
I’m against the death penalty but that’s no excuse to skimp on reporting. Those seem like obvious questions that would have easily found answers. That they aren’t in the article, begs the question if they were asked, answered, and excluded? Or just not asked?
Yes, there are other species that react negatively to hypoxic environments:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inert_gas_asphyxiation
But the idea with using it on humans is that we don’t react negatively. We don’t even feel like we’re suffocating, like with excessive CO2. Nitrogen is plentiful and is already being used for legal suicide elsewhere, which is why they’re wanting to use it.
Just posting this as an addendum to the information from the comment above. There is a 3D printed device called a Sarco Pod that has been developed for assisted suicides. As far as I know, it has yet to be deployed. However, it seems likely that it will be in the near future.
The prevailing objections to the death penalty appear to stem from the nature of the methods that have been utilized. I wonder if the sentiment would change if receiving the death penalty was effectively painless, and nearly instantaneous via one of these pods?
At that point you could certainly make an argument for life in prison being a significantly harsher, elongated, and cruel sentence. Just some food for thought.
Didn’t he ask for that method himself? I’m sure he doesn’t want to try injection again.
If you botched an execution, then the convict should be commuted to life sentence or even pardoned if they suffered greatly. In addition, the people who botched it should be put on trial for malpractice and fined/jailed.
The executions aren’t done by doctors, as that goes against their hypocratic oath. It’s not even done by nurses in a lot of cases. They’re done by people who have barely any training. Botched executions are a dime a dozen because of this.
To be clear, I am against all forms of capital punishment. It’s barbaric and has no place in 2023.
It’s barbaric and has no place in 2023.
You need to account for the time zone difference between Alabama and the rest of the world. It’s about UTC -50 years
Probably stored their date in a signed 16-bit integer
Pretty sure they actually view iPhones as a form of witchcraft.
or even pardoned if they suffered greatly
Uh, no.
I think you may be underestimating the types of people on death row and the crimes they have committed. Which is understandable as most people don’t really encounter people like that and don’t really consider the true horror the crimes committed
These people (and I’m assuming guilt has been correctly assigned here for the purposes of the argument) have committed horrific crimes. Raping and murdering children, wiping out entire familys, abudction then torture then murder, those kinds of things.
For example, the case of Johnny Johnson: https://youtu.be/ntpK9D3935o (warning: this crime is about as bad as it gets and is described in detail here). I won’t describe the crime here. The video is worth a watch if you’re curious but you have been warned.
There is no pardoning that. Ever. Under no circumstances should they ever be allowed to walk among us ever again. Even under the strictest possible supervision.
These crimes are so awful that we simply cannot forgive, and these people cannot be rehabilitated, and no second chance should be granted.
Death penalty or not (to which I can see both sides of the argument and is probably still something to be debated but isn’t the point of this comment) I can’t envision any solution of pardoning these criminals is ever acceptable.
An Edge case doesn’t disprove the general case .
It does when the edge case is the general case being discussed.
The “edge case” is a typical case.
People on death row have committed horrific crimes. They aren’t there because they stole something. They are there because they ended or destroyed lives.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/ntpK9D3935o
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source, check me out at GitHub.
It’s not much of a guinea pig if you’re just asphyxiating him, its pretty understood how that kills people. By the logic of calling him a guinea pig does that mean anytime anything is done to someone for the first time they’re a guinea pig?
The process of putting someone to death is already traumatic to the guards that have to make it happen. It makes them question whether they can find salvation - even though their job made them do it.
Now you’re asking them to experiment on people? At the very least let’s use surefire methods & people who are already murderers for this profession
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Yeah, didn’t Switzerland just approve using it for doctor assisted euthanasia?
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Kenneth Smith is one of two living Americans who can describe what it is like to survive an execution, having endured an aborted lethal injection last November during which he was subjected to excruciating pain tantamount, his lawyers claim, to torture.
If the state of Alabama has its way, he will become the test dummy for an execution method that has never before been used in judicial killings and which veterinarians consider unacceptable as a form of euthanasia for animals – death by nitrogen gas.
The choice of Smith as the first candidate for the technique, less than a year after he experienced a failed execution, has also been criticized as a double violation of the eighth amendment protection against “cruel and unusual punishments”.
Earlier that year, the state took more than three hours to kill Joe Nathan James and later abandoned the execution of Alan Miller after also failing to find a vein.
“The mask will be placed and adjusted on the condemned inmate’s face”, it says, and then after the prisoner has been allowed to make a final statement “the Warden will activate the nitrogen hypoxia system”.
Like many death penalty states, Oklahoma was looking for an alternative to lethal injection, having struggled to procure the necessary drugs as a result of an international boycott by pharmaceutical companies.
The original article contains 1,116 words, the summary contains 220 words. Saved 80%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
So often I am thankful that I dont have to live in this dystopion shithole country. Thanks for reminding me again.
Currently saving money to get out before next year’s election shitshow. I envy you.
wtf the attempted murderers tried to execute him last time even after a judge put a stay on the order???
That’s nightmarish. Although all execution is nightmarish. One day the judges involved with these crimes against humanity will hopefully face justice.
Why do we even still have the death penalty?
The protocol, the first that a state has released publicly for nitrogen, indicates that the gas will be pumped into Smith through a “mask assembly”, which will be connected to “breathing gas tubing”. “The mask will be placed and adjusted on the condemned inmate’s face”, it says, and then after the prisoner has been allowed to make a final statement “the Warden will activate the nitrogen hypoxia system”.
The gas will be passed through the mask into the prisoner for 15 minutes, or for five minutes beyond the moment that he flatlines, whichever is longer, the protocol says.
The details given are so vague, Denno said, that it leaves experts to “only speculate about how a state might conduct a nitrogen hypoxia execution”. She added that the placement of a mask on a prisoner’s face “is especially puzzling – what if the inmate tries to take it off, immediately or during the procedure?”
What a load of shit The Guardian has become. Just to be clear, did we all read the same thing? What details are left out? It seems pretty clear to me what they intend to do, does the how need to be written out in G-code or could your average person make that streeeeenuous mental leap themselves?
The most cruel parts of executions tend to be when the method fails. It’s a fair question.
I don’t believe the death penalty should exist. But I also think an airtight chamber would be a much better way to induce hypoxia than a cheap-ass mask. Given the state where this is happening, I don’t have a lot of confidence they’ll even know how to ensure the mask gives an airtight seal.
The guardian is such a shit rag nowadays. It’s like theyve just embraced the wing of the Labour Party that was convinced Corbyn was a communist antisemite. There is zero spine amongst the editors of the Guardian. They also are a supposed left-wing paper that regularly publishes opinions by supposed ‘gender critics.’
At this point you can really only rely on the Financial Times as a vaguely left newspaper that doesn’t entertain the culture war nonsense politics.
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Of all the gases why Nitrogen? Argon is more commonly used for kill bags, I think.
Because nitrogen is already the dominant gas in breathable air. Because it is plentiful and readily available. Because lungs don’t detect it as anything different than regular air. It has no side effects and no toxicity. It isn’t the nitrogen that kills, it’s the lack of oxygen. What humans detect when suffocating is excess carbon dioxide, so as long as that’a removed from the nitrogen enviroment, people will just blissfully slip into unconsciousness and then experience brain death from oxygen deprivation - while in a euphoric state the entire time it happens.
The article title is sensationalist clickbait at best, and outright disinformation at worst.
Idk I looked it up (the claim that vets don’t use it) and what I read was that it can cause feelings of suffocation. The vet claim here was a little challenging for since I doubt that pets would like a mask on their face regardless of what is coming out of it.
and what I read was that it can cause feelings of suffocation
That is contrary to everything I have found (including veterinary use for euthanasia).
You’re quite right about that I don’t know what I was looking at before.
Atmospheric prevalence?
Pretty sure argon is one of the most expensive gasses to harvest/mine.
Argon is the third-most abundant gas in Earth’s atmosphere, at 0.934%.
Argon is used in welding and costs slightly more than oxygen.
But is oxygen cheap? Oxygen is easy enough to filter out of the air, but storage and shipping are not simple. By contrast as you filter out oxygen, you’re leaving basically pure nitrogen (sure with argon and the other various gasses in negligible quantities.). I truly don’t know. Would be happy to be educated one way or another.
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