Oh sorry we’re going to have to triple your rates. What? No not for anyone else just you. Nothing to do with your feedback though, we value that!
depending on jurisdiction they can’t just arbitrarily raise rates
Which is to say
depending on jurisdiction they can just arbitrarily raise rates
Random guesses include Alabama and Arkansas
Companies are allowed to do anything unless jurisdiction says otherwise.
Companies can do anything they don’t get actually punished for.
It’s unfortunate that you have to add “depending on jurisdiction”
They’re not allowed to but they definitely can. They’ll probably get away with it unpunished too, the American “justice” system being what it is…
It’s not just the US. I had issues with my supplier a couple of years ago where they randomly changed the supply address of my account then opened additional accounts in my name without informing me or asking for consent, and after I called them to sort their shit they added a random over 2 grand charge to my account and expected me to pay my neighbour’s bill for some reason. I ended up with around 15 calls to them where every time they claimed to be confused how that could have happened and promised an immediate fix which never materialised.
When I was finally able to raise a complaint with the ombudsman the supplier didn’t even bother to respond. For all that blatant fraud they got a slap on the wrist. Their only penalty was that they had to credit a tiny amount to my account (I think it was ~£100) and remove the other fraudulent charges and accounts.
The worst part is I know for a fact they’re pulling that shit with people unable or unwilling to fight back. I dread to think how much of their profit is from just straight-up scamming people.
Holy shit, that’s fucking heinous! 🤬
I’m so sorry you and others have to go through such bullshit!
yes jokes
Oh they can’t, but they can begin charging double or triple for the “gas delivery” portion of the bill, which is seperate from “gas supply.”
You know. Because maintenance. Of pipes laid in the ground 40 years ago.
Fine. We’ll raise rates for everyone then. Thank you for your feedback!
We believe that feedback is a conversation
Would be nice if we could unfuck the US, also if we could take a bit of money from the military to get heat pumps and induction stoves, and just skip the gas
I agree on the gas for health reasons.
I really want an outdoor wok burner, because my induction stove just doesn’t get hot enough. I’m used to working with a professional stove that will go up to 700° F. The induction stove won’t get my wok above 500° F.
It’s expensive and not available yet, but this might do it: https://www.impulselabs.com/
It has a built in battery so it can have a higher peak power output without upgrading your electricity supply.
I have questions. They specifically say that once available it will run on a 120w or standard outlet, or low power 220w outlet. I don’t know that it would be possible to hit 700° F without a high power 220 outlet.
It charges its internal battery from whatever supply you have over the course of a day, then when you are cooking it can operate off the battery alone. So it doesn’t really matter how good your supply is because most home users won’t be cooking all day, so it will charge its battery slowly.
It has a 3kwh battery, I’m not sure how powerful the inverter is and it depends on supply but it might take an hour or two to charge from flat.
But it probably couldn’t maintain 700F for an extended period of time. I guess most people won’t need that heat for a long time.
They make a standalone induction burner specifically for a wok (mine came with a wok, but the one I already had works). It’s nice because you don’t have to use a flat bottom one, but it still maxes out at like 550°.
The correct answer to #2 is
‘Make it easier to tap the lines safely and steal gas without putting anyone at risk, then die in the revolution.’
Look, I get it, but maybe don’t give a warning?
Wow, maybe some of us think honesty is important, and they were kind enough to ask.
But that’s communism 🤣
Ohio separates distribution from supply. You can’t select the distributor who connects your home to the gas mains, but you can choose from dozens of suppliers who put gas into those mains.
We do the same with electricity.
This is the same for both gas and electricity (both import and export for those who can) in the UK.
It generally works quite well, and could be pretty competitive if you knew to shop around. Since Vlad’s 3 days began and natural gas prices spiked the entire market (the companies that survived) has pretty much been at the government price cap. There are some deals starting to re-appear but the main reason to switch right now is customer service. Amazing how much brand loyalty let’s the big firms treat people like shit and get away with it.The best deals tend to be time of use for people with smart meters.
Same in the EU. Or at least I think so, it’s the case over here and it’s EU-wide for electricity providers. Water, sewage and garbage disposal are municipal responsibility though there’s no network/provider separation there.
What’s actually missing is a municipal-level telecom monopoly – again, with separate providers. The last-mile network is just as much a natural monopoly for telecom as it is for other wires or pipes.
it’s the case over here and it’s EU-wide for electricity providers
I find it interesting that this is a good thing in the US and most of Europe, but in France this majorly fucked our electricity market by forcing the (mostly) state funded electricity producer into selling their electricity to some companies that provide no value aside from being an intermediate between the producer and the consumer (they are not required to produce their own electricity to buy some from EDF at a discount, and they are even allowed to sell it to consumers for less money than the lowest price EDF is allowed to charge when they are doing the same thing, because of some dumb regulations I can’t remember).
All in the name of the free market because “monopoly bad”, even though electricity production and especially distribution is, as you said, a natural monopoly.
Yeah you can’t combine a market mechanism while telling a production (quasi-)monopolist that they need to fix prices.
Reminds me of the good ole GDR: They would subsidise bread so that people could always afford it, a completely laudable goal. People also had chickens in their backyard because eggs and meat and when it came to feeding those chickens, they had a look at the prices – and, yeah, the state subsidised bread. Not grain. So they fed the chickens bread as it was cheaper. It’s an easy enough fix, just shift the subsidies but nope, governmental inertia or something prevented them from doing it.
In Australia, you can’t choose the suppliers. All the gas comes from the same place.
You can, however, choose the billing company. And it’s the same story for electricity.
municipal utilities are not much better either unfortunately
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Having government owned gas I can tell you it’s also a monopoly but one enforced even further by law
And when government fucked up those management, you as a citizen should held your government liable. People shouldn’t be afraid of their government, the government should be afraid of their people. Also, the government’s main priority is NOT to make a profit but rather serve the people. So there is a (theoretical) obligation for the government to make sure every citizen has access to their service even if at a loss.
A government monopoly run by the workers, not for profit but to provide a service, is far better than a private monopoly.
See: The USPS
It works great. It’s my favorite shipping option.
Easy to say living in a first world country
First world countries tend to not be run for the benefit of all. Not that third world countries are either, mind you, but generally removing the profit motive from basic necessities seems to have very positive results on levels of freedom and social mobility.
Except when corrupt officials just pocket the money and invest nothing into infrastructure
Monopolys aren’t good either but living in a third world country I can tell you you can find worse problems with state controlled systems than with private companies that at least have to keep you as a client somehow
Sounds like a problem with how democratically accountable it is, not with it being state run. Privately, this is how it’s supposed to work, haha.
In my experience government operated facilities are only accountable to the current government so any political wants or ideologies come first.
In a for profit situation without a monopoly the company at least has to try to keep you as a client so there’s some give and take.
Taking a monopoly from a company and putting it in the hands of the state is just as bad in my opinion
Some problems don’t have a nice for all solution sadly
Again, sounds like a government structure issue.
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Yes. Services like gas and water are natural monopolies - it doesn’t make sense to roll out two or three separate lots of distribution pipes, so you always just have one service available to you. The best option is to have them as government owned services.
And yet, I can choose from dozens of different energy companies for electricity and gas.
You’re choosing from vendors to deal with the regional vendor. You’re just paying someone to pay the company in your area. The company you pay in this scenario literally offers you zero value. They simply exist to extract money from you.
Alternatively, these services could be provided to you at a lower cost as part of your annual tax bill under a collaborative cooperative.
You’re choosing from vendors to deal with the regional vendor. You’re just paying someone to pay the company in your area.
That’s not how it works.
The price you pay has 2 main components: a fixed component for network costs. This part is always the same and only depends on the type of hookup you have (e.g. an industrial power connection would cost more than a residential one). It goes to the owner of the physical power network (this depends on where you live) who uses it for things like maintenance (and of course a little profit). The network operator does not provide power themselves.
The variable component is based on your usage and goes to the power company. The power companies provide the actual power to the national grid. While it may be true that the power coming out of my outlets wasn’t produced by the company I’m contracted with, that doesn’t really matter. Electricity is electricity. What matters is that each power company has to provide the amount of energy used by their customers to the national grid. Say company A has 100 customers that on average used 1 kilowatt-hour each, and company B has 50 customers that used the same amount on average. Then company A has to provide 100 kilowatt-hours to the national grid and company B has to provide 50 kilowatt-hours.
How they provide that power is up to them, and usually varies. The larger energy companies have their own power plants, wind and solar farms. Smaller companies may buy energy in bulk from the larger ones and try to sell it at a profit to consumers. Energy companies may also buy or sell to/from other countries, depending on capacity and demand.
Point is that they don’t just forward you the bill from a local company, they actually have to provide the power and outside of a few small ‘virtual’ energy companies they do produce that power.
DOZENS? Dozens. For real, dozens??? Please list for me every utility company that will actually provide electricity service to your home. If it’s actually more than two I will donate $25 to a charity of your choice right now. Not ones that operate in your state/county, but ones that will actually service your home. No cap, my Visa is ready. I’ll post the receipt.
DOZENS? Dozens. For real, dozens???
52 to be precise
Please list for me every utility company that will actually provide electricity service to your home.
- All-in-power
- ANWB Energie
- Budget Energie
- Clean Energy
- Coolblue energie
- DELTA
- DGB energie
- EasyEnergie
- Eneco
- Energie VanOns
- Energiedirect.nl
- Energyhouse
- EnergyZero
- Engie
- Essent
- Frank Energie
- Greenchoice
- GreenNL
- GroeneStroomLokaal
- Groenpand
- Gulf Gas + Power
- HalloStroom
- HEM
- Hezelaer Energy
- HVC
- Innova Energie
- Kikker Energie
- Mega Energie
- Mijndomein Energie
- NextEnergy
- NieuweStroom
- Noord Energie
- om | nieuwe energie
- Oxxio
- Powerpeers
- PSV Energie
- Pure Energie
- Qwint
- Scholt Energy
- SEFE Energy
- Shell Energy
- The Bill Doctor
- Tibber
- TotalEnergies
- UnitedConsumers
- Vandebron
- VanHelder
- Vattenfall
- Vrijopnaam
- WoonEnergie
- Zondergas
- Zonneplan
I’m gonna commit to this. How does this work? I looked and according to the Internet TenneT is the sole operator of the national electrical grid in the Netherlands. Do you have 52 power lines running to your home? What do these companies do if they don’t actually produce the electricity or operate the grid?
I have precisely one power company that services about 5 million residents here where I live. No other options. This is the case for almost all Americans as far as I’m aware, outside of a few specific municipality-run power organizations, but those are exceedingly rare.
In Australia, and I assume the Netherlands, the transmission network is separately owned and run by government corporations. While multiple private companies are allowed to generate power and sell to customers on the government owned grid.
Interesting, I’ve never heard of this before but I suspect you’re right. Was it always this way in Australia? I can’t for the life of me figure out how America could be convinced to make its way towards this, but this sort of arrangement seems like a pretty ideal middle-ground.
How does this work? I looked and according to the Internet TenneT is the sole operator of the national electrical grid in the Netherlands. Do you have 52 power lines running to your home?
TenneT runs the what is called the ‘koppelnet’ (linking network). This is a high-voltage network that links the power stations together and also links to the europe-wide electrical high voltage network. Locally, the distribution networks form the link between the high-voltage net and your home. It first goes to a medium-voltage network and finally a low-voltage network. In my case the distribution network is owned by Enexis.
Neither Enexis or TenneT produce power. TenneT is owned by the government, Enexis is a private company but these are heavily regulated (e.g. there are caps on how much profit they are allowed to make).
As a consumer, you pay a fixed amount per day for use of the distribution network. You pay this through your normal energy bill. This is specified separately on the bill. In my case this means I pay €426,95 a year to Enexis. This fee is purely based on the size of my connection to the grid, in my case 3 phase 25 amps. It doesn’t change if I use more or less power.
As for where my electricity comes from? I don’t know, because it changes constantly and with how electricity works, I’m not even sure if this question makes sense. All power producers together keep the grid supplied with enough power. Power stations across the country are linked together and how the generated power is distributed is monitored and adjusted constantly. This also includes capacity from other European countries, as those grids are linked too.
Lots of people have solar panels nowadays and if they produce more than they need they can supply that back to the grid as well and get paid for it (it basically means their electricity meter runs backwards).
What do these companies do if they don’t actually produce the electricity or operate the grid?
A bunch of them do produce the electricity, but as I said the power plants are connected to the nation-wide linking network. There is no direct relation between any of these power plants and my home. They can also pay someone else to produce it for them. This could be someone in a completely different country. A bunch is produced locally through solar panels and sold to the power company by consumers.
Some smaller companies may not produce anything themselves and just buy it somewhere, but where als can vary day by day and hour by hour. They will buy it wherever they can get the best deal at that time.
All that matters is that they make sure they provide enough energy to the national grid to cover the use of their customers. How it’s actually distributed is completely separate.
Note that due to how the energy market works, electricity prices change hour by hour. In my case I have a contract with a fixed price for a certain amount of time (1 year, but you can get longer contracts), but it’s also possible as a consumer to get a completely flexible contract. That means the price you pay for electricity changes every hour, based on the actual market price (plus a markup for the energy company of course). Especially during the day when lots of solar power is available, the price can drop a lot. There have even been cases where the price was negative for a short while (i.e. you got paid to use electricity) due to overproduction. If you have a flex contract, your energy company usually has an app that will tell you the current price and the expected price for the next couple of hours.
I have precisely one power company that services about 5 million residents here where I live. No other options.
So if their power plant goes down 5 million people are without power? That sounds extremely fragile.
So I’ve been thinking a lot about this. With a few exceptions you’re actually pretty close to describing what we have in the States. There is more than one power producer in my state, and all the producers feed into the same grid whose infrastructure is regulated by the government. If a producer fails to produce, I can still get access to the electricity on the grid, but the key difference is that most of the delivery infrastructure is fully owned and operated by the same companies that do the production. I think we’re getting hung up on the difference between provider and producer, which in America is mostly always the same thing.
It sounds like the Netherlands does in fact have two power providers then in the form of Enexis and TenneT, at least as I understand the term “provider” as we use it here. Or do you also maintain contracts/payments with individual power production firms that you haven’t already described? What is the benefit of maintaining a contract with any of these companies if they already sold the power to Enexis/TenneT and they don’t do any other administration services?
Our system is indeed fragile and I wish we could figure it out. I was a little off, DTE Energy services 2.3 million customers for power. We regularly experience outages affecting people into the hundreds of thousands. There’s no incentive for them to improve the infrastructure since they’re a monopoly. Most of the power here is delivered via free-standing poles instead of underground lines, which are obviously prone to issues related to wind/snow/trees. It fucking sucks. Even just separating the delivery system from private business would be a monumental shift.
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How do you send different supplier’s water down the same pipes while making sure customers get the supplier they’re paying for’s water?
Quite simple actually. The supplier knows how much water it puts in the pipes, and consumers have meters that measure how much water they take out of the pipes.
Water is water… It doesn’t matter if you’re not getting the exact same water molecules put in by your supplier.
Think of it like this… You have a jug of water. The supplier puts in a glass of water, and you (the consumer) take out one glass of water. The quantity of water in the jug stays the same, but you pay the supplier for how much water you took out.
It works the same way with electricity.
Tap water is not just water. Water has a bunch of other things in it besides water. The main reason I can think to choose a different water supplier than the cheapest is the water quality. If the cheap supplier is gonna crap up all the water for everyone else, what’s anyone incentive not to go with the cheap supplier? Doesn’t that pretty quickly devolve into a monopoly?
With electricity, it is just electricity and people have opinions about how that electricity is generated. But even there, it’s usually not a good thing. It leads to high pressure, scammy sales tactics that result in higher bills for no benefit.
Hypothetically, what if my electricity, in my shitty profit seeking corporation, cycles inconsistently?
What if my equipment at my rinky-dink substation fluctuates between something absurd like 40hz to 70hz.
This would be extremely dirty electricity\ electromagnetic pollution.
If you’re all using the same wires, you’re subjected to those problems even if you don’t contract with them. So multiple suppliers doesn’t fix the issue. It just introduces more suppliers who can have those problems.
That would destroy the entire grid and a lot of equipment. It’s why texas had rolling blackouts a few winters ago, it’s a fine balance between supply and demand to maintain stable voltage and frequency. Failure to do so can result in a LOT of damage. If you don’t have enough supply, you have to reduce demand.
Can be solved by putting a certain quality requirement for putting water into the pipes. Suppliers can compete on price.
It’s not realistic to have multiple pipe systems covering the same area. Digging pipes is very expensive. Digging multiple networks of pipes is insane. This solution is the best compromise to have multiple suppliers serve in the same area.
If the only difference is price, how does that not just devolve into a monopoly or shitty sales tactics to try to trick people into paying more for the same product?
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Operated solely in the public interest by publicly accountable individuals
Um… I’m perfectly OK with a “monopoly” for my fire fighting services. Why would I feel differently for my utilities services?
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Nothing says punk more than enabling for profit corporations to hold sole ownership of the utilities that we need to continue living in a bare minimum standard of living. /s
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Make sense before you comment next time
We’re talking about basic utilities though. Do you think the average person can start or run such a business? I’m honestly interested in the answer.
Solar power, yes definitely. Is power not a basic utility?
Good point but I would say it’s hard to monopolize solar power since it’s easy to just buy your own panels. Wheras it’s not feasible to buld your own power plant.
Wasn’t that the point though? You’re arguing that small scale power doesn’t exist when it clearly does.
I never said that. Small scale power is always the way to go! Be it small hydro or solar panels!
It’s very different to have small localized power and distribution networks than controlling a whole country’s power and then giving that whole network to a private company to manage.
Please enlighten me on how I can start a utilities company? Make sure you give me details on how I can maximize profits to my shareholders while fucking over my customers.
Or maybe I should start a non-profit utilities company, and the cost of your services is subsidized by taxpayers’ money. That way, I don’t have to constantly chase capitalism and make life better for my community instead of my shareholders.
Put a solar panel on your roof.
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Insightful.
If the government decides to privatize utilities like electricity/gas or whatever, then sure it is freedom for some rich business owners to open up new businesses. However, this also results in those utilities becoming profit driven (as opposed to being for the public), and literally everyone in the country having to pay much more than they were paying previously.
My country had electricity privatized around 4 years ago, and in result we have to pay a lot more, not to mention about numerous fraud cases that were all over the news during and after the privatization period.
If you think that rich business owners being able to open up a couple of business at the expense of fucking over the public is a good thing and being against it is some weird hexbear delusion, then I’d advise you to get out of the libertarian bubble and look at the real world instead.
It’s not the people in the solarpunk community (because of federation posts get federated throughout the fediverse) but rather people not noticing the community
Freedom to be enslaved is negative freedom.
It is replacing a privately owned, for-profit business with a public utility owned by… the public.
Those things are natural monopolies, so the choice isn’t monopoly vs free-market it’s profit-driven-monopoly vs public-good-driven-monopoly.
Unlike what’s said by the mindless pseudo-Economics bollocks a lot of prople have been indoctrinated with, the upsides for consumers of a Free Market only exist in the subset of markets were there are natural conditions for high levels of competition - which is most definitelly not gas provision to households - and even in those there are still systemic problems such as negative externalities that require some level of regulation.
Distribution is a natural monopoly. Supply is not. Every supplier is putting the same, standardized product in the pipes. If they put a cubic foot in, and I take a cubic foot out, I can call them my supplier, even if they are putting it into the pipeline a thousand miles away from me and there is zero chance I will ever be burning the actual gas they supplied.
Indeed, and separating distribution from production is how decent competition is introduced in such markets (there are still barriers to entry related to infrastructure, but they’re nowhere as bad as the ones when the distribution infrastructure is owned by the gas company).
However, often that’s not how things are in the markets for gas, power and water supply as well as internet access.
Not only that but in markets were those things are separate the supply companies will try as hard as they can to get their hands on the distribution side (for obvious reasons), and, well, neoliberal politicians are usually happy to let them. The natural tendency in an unregulated market in those things is for sooner or later to end up in a winner-takes-all situation were one of the suppliers got it’s hands on the distribution side and used it to create a monopoly position, if only locally.
It’s a funny thing about the so-called “Free Market” in domains were it is possible for businesses to directly or indirectly create the conditions for natural monopolies: without actual intervention from an outside strong and independent actor (i.e. a governmental power with the will to intervene) such markets sooner or later end up naturally not being free anymore.
Market actors activelly and constantly seek a dominant position so if there are conditions for a monopoly (the most dominant position there is) one will eventually succeed and if there aren’t but there are for the next best thing (a cartel) a handful of them will eventually succeed.
