It’s a really childish view of what voting is supposed to be. No, Biden isn’t everything you want, but Trump is a DUMPSTER FIRE who will actively make your life WORSE.
So your choice is:
- Vote for Biden
- Don’t vote, and elect Trump
- Vote 3rd party and elect Trump
- Vote for Trump
“Hey, if that guy wins, he’s going to rob everyone then set fire to their grandmother. That means we can simply do nothing and it’s a shoe-in!”
“Au contraire, mon frere. That means so long as we don’t set fire to people’s grandmothers, not only do we get to rob everyone, but they’ll thank us for doing it, and we will own them.”
Yeah no. We’ll take the L just to see you get robbed too, and the smoke from your burning grandmothers will be as incense in our nostrils.
If the motherfucker thinks people will give him a pass on genocide as tribute for saving the country from trump, he’s going to get a brutal fucking lesson in petty spite.
Biden is NOT the one committing genocide. Save that ire for Bibi where it belongs.
Biden is sending bibi new weapons daily
And Bibi is the one choosing to use them.
“I didn’t kill anyone, I just gave the homicidal maniac a better gun. And then after he had already killed a lot of people, I went above and beyond to get him more ammo.”
How do you feel about moral responsibility for people who fund terrorists? No harm, no foul as long as they’re not personally planting bombs?
When Trump doubles the US’s support for Israel I hope you get a good view from up on your high horse.
Your options are
- Genocide
- Genocide, but more of it
- Lol I don’t care.
Do you wanna protest? Riot? Something more drastic? You can vote and do that, so long as you avoid a felony conviction.
Ok, and? What’s your plan to get people that are barely removed from actually being children to vote more? It’s easy to come up with a reason why each segment of non-voters is making a dumb and self-destructive choice by not doing their patriotic duty to elect the better leader, but like, we still need them to vote. Elections are won on turning out unreliable voters.
The only real plan, unfortunately, is experience. They failed to learn the lesson from 4 years of Trump, if the country survives another 4 years maybe they’ll think better next time.
“Oh, shit, I totally should have voted!”
Yeah, ya think?
The best things we can do now are too late for '24:
-
Push for universal vote by mail in ALL states. It eliminates the barriers to voting and increases participation.
-
Get ranked choice balloting in ALL states. Alaska is embarrassing the rest of us.
Just getting those two things would go a long way to permanently remove Republicans from power… which is why they won’t do them voluntarily.
Those things are too late for 2048 even.
-
This would be true if Democrats didn’t actively surpress and ignore younger and progressive voters and candidates, instead focusing on a non-existent class of swing voters.
If a candidate goes out of their way to not represent you, derides and ignores your needs, why would you vote for them?
The Democratic party is broken by corporate greed and has been since Citizens United. People are wise to that reality and have no interest in participating in a system that doesn’t protect them, fight for their rights or show any real interest in progress.
That doesn’t make anything the person you responded to, wrong. Not participating is the same as not voting which the consequences were outlined above. Anyone that doesn’t vote for Biden because he’s not catering to them as some sort of “fuck you” to the system, is a fucking idiot. The thought that somehow the alternative is a better option is asinine. Life’s not fair, and sometimes no. Preferred decisions have to be made. In this particular case, there’s only one right decision. Every other choice aligns with Trump, Russia, and fascism, and is therefore, the wrong decision.
Well, no, if the Democratic party is only going to listen to their “moderate” neo-liberal swing voters then the only way of waking that demographic of people up is letting them experience the consequences until they “get it”.
Take RvW for example, it didn’t matter how loudly progressives warned people of the imminent failure of Dems to protect bodily autonomy, your average woman needed to go through the experience of losing RvW before they started to understand and give it a shit. And even now, idiots hail Ginsberg as some kind of hero feminist icon, they still don’t grasp the depth of the problems we’re facing as a nation.
From the responses here it sounds like we unfortunately need to learn more painful lessons before people understand that neoliberalism isn’t just the lesser of two evils, but is an abject failure unequipped to fight the war that needs to be fought. It needs to go yesterday.
If trump getting elected isn’t going to teach them anything. It’s just going to let fascists break the system further, and reduce the chance that things can get better in the future.
If you want to send a message you have to riot.
Everyone has to riot, and right now too many middle class liberal types are accepting of “half-way fascism” because it’s not effecting them.
They’re fine with the center left getting shoved to the side as “extreme”, they’re fine with minorities losing their rights as long as it’s not them, they’re fine with not looking too closely at how Dems have been culpable in the broken system we live in, looking too closely at the fact that Dems want things to stay exactly how they are and are ill-equipped and unwilling to fight the far-right.
The only way they get knocked out of that stupor is by being faced with the cold reality themselves.
You’re wrong, but ok. In a FPtP system, you have two options. Learning these lessons as you put it, is like throwing people under a runaway bus to slow it down. The consequences are far worse when you side with fascism, which is exactly what you’re promoting.
The consequences are already happening for people, you are just in a comfortable enough position where you can accept the status quo. To a lot of people it doesn’t matter and while you might say to those people “Fuck you,I don’t care if Dems gave failed you for forty years, I’m doing ok still so vote for who I say.” the bullying and demanding just isn’t working on people anymore.
Time for neoliberals to be the ones to start compromising. If they don’t want to they can come down here with everyone else and get an education.
Neoliberals aren’t going to compromise, they only compromise with facists. Not voting doesn’t spark change, it just intensifies the suffering of those vulnerable people. If you want change you have to riot. But you can do that and still vote so long as you avoid a felony conviction.
If those people that already are in a bad place think that voting for the worst candidate, which will for sure make things worse for them, will some how send a message and spark change, those people are idiots. That’s not how reality works. Vote for Biden and live to fight another day, or give up and vote fascist. Two options as it has always been.
No, Biden isn’t everything you want, but
He’s everything anyone who says this wants.
That’s fucking stupid. Most of Biden’s base doesn’t fucking like him. Our two options both have really shitty approval ratings.
We vote against the guy we hate the most here, not for someone we like.
We vote against the guy we hate the most here, not for someone we like.
I’ve already said I’m voting for the pro-genocide candidate you prefer. I am not abstaining, nor voting for the other pro-genocide candidate.
I am saying that if Biden does not cease his support for genocide, he will lose. You will blame me for his loss anyway because you don’t care how anyone votes, you just want performative unquestioning fealty to your guy.
Oh no, I mean. When he loses it will be because of his disgusting choices in regards to the genocide. We’re on the same page.
I want to not have Trump set it all on fire, which means voting Biden.
The notion that all misgivings are bratty insistence on perfection is insulting to people who have serious objections.
From people who have none.
I mean, the argument is “Biden isn’t good enough, so I don’t give a shit if the DRASTICALLY WORSE option wins.”
Of course you sound like bratty perfectionists.
And you sound like you love everything Biden does. Especially the genocide support.
No sweetheart, it’s called harm reduction. You see, the other option to intensify that genocide support.
Demeaning pet names and condescension are what centrists do when they can’t defend the genocide they have always wanted.
We are not on the same page.
Nobody wanted to choose between Hilary and Trump in 2016 and look what fucking happened. Don’t make the same dumbfuck mistake by not voting or voting 3rd party without enough support to ever come close to winning.
Everyone sucks; but you’re not doing anything good by not choosing the least shitty option.
Nobody wanted to choose between Hilary and Trump in 2016
Party leadership wanted exactly that. They got their second choice.
Why is the answer never “Biden has to do something bold and public to earn the votes of the unexcited, rather than leaning on I’m-not-Trump?”
The student loan thing night have worked if the courts didn’t shoot it full of holes. Why is he not promising to pack the courts to force it through? Stonewall any legislation that limps through the knife-edge House until they codify Roe? Go for the fucking jugular on something!
Showing some real backbone to Bibi might help, but we can’t possibly have that.
I keep expecting they’ll reschedule marijuana for the desperate hail mary. You’d think it was perfect for him because in many ways it wouldn’t really change the status quo of state-level legalization, but shows he’s at least read a dorm room poster at some point in his life.
Because when Obama did it in 08, all those bitter moderates voted Republican.
And they’re still shitty that it didn’t stop Obama for daring to run against Hillary when it was her turn.
So for 16 years they’ve been repeating to themselves that a progressive candidate can’t win because moderates will vote Republican. Even though the only time in modern history it happened, the progressive still flipped a bunch of red states in a huge win.
The people running the DNC are fucking terrible at getting Democrats elected, because they don’t have the same idea of what a democratic candidate should be as what party voters think a candidate should be.
Is there some chance Biden might win Tennessee? Why do we care about what a bunch of 20 year olds in Tennessee specifically think?
We don’t. The news, however, does. Their mission is to get clicks, and shit like this gets clicks.
(I mean I didn’t click on it, but in general I think it’s far far more effective than updating people with what’s going on with the Houthis or another story about how Trump is a crook or something like that.)
Democrats: we don’t care what you think, but we demand your vote.
I don’t think it’s reasonable to discount what people (especially working people or Palestinian people) think, no. And the Democrats have a long, long track record of doing that, fair play. As a great example, Hillary Clinton’s “if you’re not in a swing state or you’re not one of my delegates then fuck you” attitude definitely didn’t do her any favors.
I do think however that it’s perfectly reasonable not to care what one particular person thinks, who clearly has been victimized by a certain level of corporate misinformation in the media. That whole situation is clearly worth talking about as a problem, but not as a “Biden needs to do a better job of agreeing with what this person thinks” problem. In my opinion.
I don’t think it’s reasonable to discount what people (especially working people or Palestinian people) think, no. And the Democrats have a long, long track record of doing that, fair play.
And yet, the party is still doing it. Your comment is consistent with the party’s “fuck you, we’re never changing and you’re going to vote for us” message.
Why are you arguing with me dude, on this I’m agreeing with you
Why are you arguing with me dude, on this I’m agreeing with you
You agree that your comment is consistent with Democrats’ “Fuck you” messaging? Ok.
I think you’re just wired for conflict maybe 🙂
- Establishment Democrats: Fuck you
- You: They shouldn’t say that
- Me: They shouldn’t say that
- You: You agree that your comment is consistent with Democrats’ “Fuck you” messaging
I feel I’ve said pretty much what I need to say about it at this point
I don’t know where USA Today found these people.
Kristian Mansel, 23 said she’s willing to see a Trump victory if it means Biden and Democratic Party learn a lesson. She’s mad Biden and Democrats have failed to protect reproductive rights or wipe out student loans.
“It’s just there’s too many strikes against him and the Democratic Party at this point in general,” said Mansel, a University of Memphis student who considers herself liberal.
Has she paid any attention at all to what each party is trying to do?
She was 15 in 2016. Probably not.
I don’t know where USA Today found these people.
Same place as the Bernie Bros who voted for Trump instead of Hilary Clinton, giving the USA 3 more conservative Supreme Court Justices.
You know, to stick it to the Democrats.
If Democrats want their votes, Democrats need to change. Democrats would rather lose.
If Bernie can’t beat Hillary Clinton in 2016 primaries when only leftists+moderates are voting, why the fuck would he win in the general election when we start including right and far-rifght people in America?
The fact is, the Democratic Party primaries are the best for a far-left person like Bernie. (Much like how far-right candidates have the biggest advantage during Republican primaries). If you can’t move the votes in the primary, its impossible to win during the general election.
If progressives are so insignificant that the party can ignore them, you don’t get to blame them for Clinton’s loss. She was so useless as a candidate that she had to be carried across the line in the primaries by a party that argued in court that their primaries didn’t need to be honest, and then forgot that she wasn’t still being carried in the general.
Democrats would rather lose than debase themselves by appealing to the progressives they hold in utter contempt.
If progressives are so insignificant that the party can ignore them, you don’t get to blame them for Clinton’s loss.
Yes I can. A significant minority of Bernie Bros are Sanders–Trump voters in both 2016 and 2020. LITERALLY participating and specifically supporting Trump.
Get out of here with the lack of responsibility.
A significant minority of Bernie Bros are Sanders–Trump voters in both 2016 and 2020.
Not significant enough to throw the election to Trump like you’re claiming. But it beats admitting Clinton was shit, so you’ll blame progressives for the loss she worked so hard to earn. To put a finer point on it, a greater percentage of Clinton supporters voted for McCain in 2008. They even formed a PAC to try to elect McCain.
Sanders supporters overwhelmingly voted for Clinton in 2016 and Biden in 2020. Clinton supporters actively worked against Obama in 2008. Centrists got their third choice in 2008 and their second choice in 2016.
I’m Republican yo. You would have lost my vote if you put Sanders on the ticket.
To put a finer point on it, a greater percentage of Clinton supporters voted for McCain in 2008. They even formed a PAC to try to elect McCain.
And that’s closer to my demographic. A lot of what McCain said (ex: the Ukrainian situation) has come true in the past decade, and has proven Obama to have been a naive fool.
You have my support, for now, as long as Republicans are dumbasses with Trump and as long as you keep a moderate (like Biden or Clinton) as your #1 ticket. But my support for Democrats may be somewhat temporary but its better than nothing.
Eventually:
Kristian Mansel, 27, said she’s glad that the Democrats have learned their lesson. “If I was still allowed to vote, I’d vote for them this time around.”
They should refuse to participate in a system that does not represent them or their needs. It’s not enough for Biden to say we are not trump when most of his policies are carried over from Trump or are variations of them. In 2020 they voted for Biden and got more of trump.
Feels like a broken record at this point
In 2020 they voted for Biden and got:
- $150 billion in student loan forgiveness
- Lowest unemployment in 20-50 years depending on how you count
- Wealth inequality going down for the first time in I have no idea how long
- Actual urgent effort to address climate change for the first time in US history
- 15% minimum corporate tax, Amazon paying higher taxes than they ever have before by quite a large margin (which is what funded most of the above)
And, that all happened despite absolutely rabid resistance from the Republicans at every turn.
A lot of people are still suffering, which makes it hard to feel like anything is good – in particular, inflation is rising faster than wages at the top end of the scale, which makes it “feel” especially to people in the tech industry like the economy is still doing bad (which, it kind of is). However, wages for people who do housekeeping or manufacturing or etc are actually rising faster than inflation by quite a large margin – that’s incredibly unusual in the modern day even when inflation isn’t spiking, and it’s a direct result of some of Biden’s policies like strengthening the NLRB or spending billions and billions of dollars of Amazon’s money on domestic manufacturing.
The criticism of Biden over his criminal support for Israel is real and fair. Of course, he’s at least making some limp little noises about maybe giving Netanyahu a stern talking to if he exceeds his dead children quota, whereas Trump just wants to kill all the Palestinians and ban Muslims from the country and maybe start with Hispanics too.
The mythology that people got betrayed who voted for Biden is very explicit propaganda; it has absolutely no grounding in the reality of what happened.
To be fair - abortion was also a huge issue and Biden has made no progress on that point. It doesn’t help to deny his failures even if he has had quite a few successes (and it seems impossible that Biden could have actually addressed abortion rights in any meaningful way beyond what he did). That’s a bar he set for himself.
Are you sure that the unfolding abortion disaster in this country currently is what you want to pick to argue the “it doesn’t matter whether we elect Democrats or Republicans, because the outcome will be the same” thesis?
Think again. Are you sure? Because I’m happy to argue against that thesis if you’re sure you want to stick with it. I think probably you can imagine what my argument will be without me even needing to say it.
I’m not sure how you got that out of what the guy wrote.
TBH I think I read “Biden has made no progress” and “It doesn’t help to deny his failures” and didn’t read in depth much beyond that. I think you’re right that it was unfair to assume; rereading it now, I just don’t really understand what they actually meant. But yeah maybe it was unfair to assume what I did about what they’re saying.
Like they say “it seems impossible that Biden could have actually addressed abortion rights in any meaningful way beyond what he did.” Okay, agreed… So is it still a failure of his that I’m not acknowledging?
I think it’s a very understandable failure from Biden as I personally don’t believe stuffing the Supreme Court would be a reasonable approach, additionally Biden couldn’t tell that Democrats would get swept in the midterms when he was elected.
That all said, Biden very much ran on abortion (in a “I’ll fix it” way - not just “Trump will ban it nationally”) so it is a promise he made that he couldn’t keep. Do I blame Biden for the shortfall? No. Do I think Biden shouldn’t have implied he’d reinstate abortion rights? Yes.
Anyways, come November I’m voting for Biden because otherwise Trump will absolutely, guaranteed, murder women through denying reasonable healthcare.
I’d like to know exactly what policies you’re referring to.
Let me ask you, how do you feel about the Patriot act? What about the no default student loans? What about the increase of incarcerations from a heighten war on drugs?
Why do you think voting for the guy who did all this just one more time is going to undo all of that when he spent his entire carrier catering to people even more right than the Democrats?
They are also ‘saving democracy’ by passing warrantless spying
Lemmy.world users trying not to blame Biden for his own unpopularity challenge (impossible)
I love how anything that’s remotely anti-Biden or anti-Democrat gets downvoted around here… god forbid the “politics” sub is neutral…and not one-sided like Reddit…
I’m gonna go and check what are the top 3 posts for the past week in !politics@lemmy.world and !world@lemmy.world
Okay fuck. None of it is anti Biden. However, story number 4 is “Nancy Pelosi Among 40 House Democrats Demanding Biden Halt Weapon Transfers to Israel.” +486 upvotes, -15 downvotes
Seems like if it’s criticism that makes sense, people are fine with it, and if it’s just an excuse to throw poop nuggets at him, people don’t like it. For example I’m not really aware of any significant contingent that thinks it’s anything other than horrifying that Biden is supporting Israel in its genocide.
Nancy Pelosi Among 40 House Democrats Demanding Biden Halt Weapon Transfers to Israel
This is why we cant trust them, they say one thing, then do another
The user posting is known to post propaganda. If you’ve read the article, you’d see how one-sided it is. And if young people are turned off by both candidates, why is the article only discussing the supposed “young liberals” that aren’t going to vote? Where are the young conservatives?
Hi, it’s me. The Russian/China/MAGA bot. Just because you don’t agree with the article doesn’t mean it’s not real. Instead of burying your head in the sand, learn why some voters aren’t supporting Biden.
It’s propaganda through and through. I’ve pointed out exactly why it’s propaganda. Try to prove me otherwise.
These are all news articles from mainstream liberal and leftist sources. That doesn’t make it propaganda.
Do you remember how much of an echo chamber Reddit’s/r/politics became? Is that what you want for Lemmy’s politics too? Nobody can be critical of Biden or the Democratic party?
Except I’ve pointed out exactly why it’s propaganda. I’m critical of Biden, too, but the article you posted, which isn’t the first time, is clear propaganda. You can continue to post this shit but don’t be surprised when people call you our for it.
Well stick around, November is a long ways away.
