I went to some palestine protests a while back, and was talking to my brother about the organizing, when revealed something I found pretty shocking, we (the protesters) had acquired a permit to hold the protest. Apparently this is standard policy across the US.
More recently, my University is also having protests, and in their policy, they also require explicit approval for what they call “expressive activity”. I’m pretty sure not having a permit has been used as an excuse to arrest students in some other campuses.
My question is as the title, doesn’t this fundamentally contradict the US’s ideals of free speech? What kind of right needs an extra permit to exercise it?
When I was talking to my brother, he also expressed a couple more points:
- The city will pretty much grant all permits, so it’s more of a polite agreement in most cases
- If we can get a permit (which we did) why shouldn’t we?
I’m assuming this is because of legal reasons, they pretty much have to grant all permits.
Except I think this makes it all worse. If the government grants almost all permits, then the few rare times it doesn’t:
- The protest is instantly de-legitimized due to not having a permit
- There’s little legal precedent for the protesters to challenge this
And then of course there’s the usual slippery slope argument. You’re giving the government a tool they could expand later to oppress you further. Maybe they start with the groups most people don’t like and go up from there.
The city will pretty much grant all permits
Yes, and they have to, because of your free speech.
so it’s more of a polite agreement in most cases
No, it is meant for serious. If there are cases where they don’t give a permit, they need to have very serious reason.
(For example, if the place where you want to go is very inappropriate, the would tell you to choose a different place)
But there is more: you asking for the permit is important in itself, so the administration can take the needed action for public order, e.g traffic regulation etc. So you have to tell them where you want to do it and how many people you expect to participate.
And when you want to demonstrate about controversial topics, they have to send even more police there for your safety. At least in my country that is legally required. The police helps to protect your right of free speech.
You’re giving the government a tool they could expand later to oppress you further
I don’t know why you think so. That would be a state without free speech then.
This is pretty much it.
The city knows about your protest so they can plan accordingly.
They may also make requests of your protest, eg, could you self organise your own traffic wardens to ensure the safety of everyone involved.
You can inform the city without requiring approval.
they have to send even more police there for your safety.
I don’t know which country you live in but I can’t recall a single protest in the US where the police have protected the protestors from others
They protect white supremacists all the time.
I trust this all even less now.
My understanding is that the permits essentially allow you to disrupt things like traffic by having sections of the city cordoned off for gathering/marching. Take this with a grain of salt, as I’ve never had to actually deal with the permitting myself.
Yeah, that’s accurate-- The permit has nothing to do with speech, it has to do with use of public space. Where I’m from, the police will come and block off streets and manage traffic to keep demonstrators safe. Without the permit, everyone would still be allowed to say more or less whatever they wanted, but the logistics of the gathering could create a hazard, and that’s just a gray area that everyone is just better off avoiding.
It’s a matter of when and where.
A protest isn’t inherently able to be made anywhere any time. Public property is shared property, so in order for one group to use that to the exclusion of others takes planning. On private property, nobody is obligated to allow you there at all, and not all universities are public.
The street you block in protest isn’t your street, it’s our street, so you have no more or less rights to it than I do. A permit, in theory, is just a fancy way to make sure that anyone else that would be using that place can have alternatives. Traffic being rerouted, etc.
There are also health and safety issues like overloading bleachers being a risk, or a space not being able to be evacuated in an emergency because of too many people.
You’re right, if permits are not granted equally, it’s a huge problem, and abuses can occur. They do occur. But as long as the entity (be it a government or a university or business) isn’t placing undue obstacles, grants permits equally, and everything is done without corruption (bribes or such), that’s how the most basic peaceful protest has to work.
This isn’t saying that there can’t be other forms of protest. There are many forms available. But a simple awareness protest? It needs to be peaceful, cooperative, and only marginally inconvenient. Remember, that kind of protest is about awareness, of making sure people know and possibly gaining support. It’s a flies with honey vs vinegar.
Now, illegal protests, disruptive protests, and even violent protests have their place too. As do rallies, which can be seen as a type of protest, but isn’t really the same imo. But you have to choose when and where to apply those tools effectively. Some protests, the entire point is to cause disruption, get arrested, and use that as a tool to achieve a goal. But a cooperative legal protest can do things that type can’t.
Remember, the right to free speech does not guarantee you can exercise it everywhere. Your right to free speech ends at your neighbor’s door, so to speak. You can say what you like, but she doesn’t have to let you say it on her porch. You can be asked to leave, and should you refuse, be removed after some hoop jumping along the way (which varies by state and municipality).
A public space like a street is the same basic thing. You have a right to use it, and so does everyone else. Your freedom and their freedom may come into conflict. Having some kind of system for resolving that issue is necessary. Permits work for parades, parties, and protests.
Even with the kind of anarchy that most people identifying as anarchists espouse, there’s a social contract involved in that kind of thing. It’s only a matter of the mechanism involved.
Besides, there’s always been limits on speech. Collectively, there’s an understanding that there are limits where, when, and how they can be expressed. The whole “fire in a theater” trope is an example. There’s “fighting words” laws on the books. The only question is what any given social structure has decided those limits are.
Generally, whether it works correctly or not, representative democracy promises that the limits are agreed on via those we elect to do so. That has flaws of course, but that’s the US on a simplistic level. We’ve all agreed to the limits in one way or another, or can choose to try and change those limits (or the social structure itself).
But if that slippery slope slides too far, well, that’s when protests become revolution, in theory. Assuming enough people agree and work together. It doesn’t seem to happen very often, but that’s the ultimate safeguard against a democracy failing.
Yeh, freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences.
A permit from the city (and good planning) helps mitigate those consequences (safety for protesters and public) so there should be no reason to prosecute you for organising a protest. If something does go wrong, you have protection because you have done everything correctly.
You can absolutely shout “fire” in a theatre.
But if its without cause and it creates a panic/injuries/whatever, then you are responsible for what happens.
You won’t be prosecuted for shouting “fire”, that’s free speech. You will be prosecuted for causing a panic, that’s the consequences of your free speech.
If you haven’t figured it out by now, everything US stands for is a bait and switch, which is selectively applied based on race and class.
- Peace? Nope, will destroy nations and fund genocide when convenient. It’s only bad when white people are being oppressed.
- Freedom? Nope, The surveillance state monitors you all (anyone remember snowden? )
- Equality? They’ll try to pass laws to kill ya if you speak up about women rights
- Guns? Basically a murder fantasy for the rich, that got out of hand and now everyone can enjoy that fantasy
- Slavery? It’s okay. private prisons here to help
- Democracy? with 2 parties???
It got rich by exploiting resources on a stolen land and using propaganda to push their clickbait ideals to entice smart people as the “American Dream”. They don’t even care if they’re Nazis, So yea.
“Free speech” is very much misunderstood as a form of carte blanche as your example demonstrates. It’s written as “Congress shall make no law…” etc., implying you’re protected only from the federal government, but as time and court cases and legal discourse have shown, there are limits and implications for lower legislatures to model from. The classic hypothetical example is “yelling fire in a crowded theater.” Can you? Yes. Should you? Unless there’s a fire, no, then it could cause panic and injury, and you’d be responsible. That sort of thing. (The US loves a lawsuit).
Tl;dr to answer your question: no.
yelling fire
Free speech is the right to say your opinion, however unpopular or silly it may be.
But who would misunderstand yelling fire as “free speech”?
- A protest isn’t just a speech - it’s an act. It’s an act of blocking a street, occupying a square, crowding or obstructing a neighborhood etc.
- In democratic countries, a permit isn’t an ask for permission, but more like a notification. Like you say youself: all permits are approved. But you are warning the city that a protest is going to happen here and there.
I imagine the surveillance and data collection about protestors is a bigger infringement on free speech
I don’t think you could call it an infringement, but it certainly is a bigger threat. Doesn’t really address my question though
Yes.
Sure. As long as they grant you the permit, they’ve granted you the right to free speech. And I suppose that’s also why they’re almost never declined.
EVERYTHING you do in the USA is illegal. This is not hyperbole.
Any right you think you have is stripped by another law also on the books. You are always and forever in breach of the law. This allows you those with no education and power like police and DAs to pick and choose who and what to prosecute. If everyone is in breach, it doesn’t make it legal. It just makes it a game of “don’t piss off your oppressor”. This is the same game used in North Korea. Same in the USSR. Same in many fascist nations with an illusion of democracy.
