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What does this even mean?
“Men lose their mind” = they start shouting and shitting on the floor in disbelief?
“Daughters aren’t as forgiving as their wives”: forgiving what exactly? Mistakes?
It’s like they think they’re saying something profound and agreeing with each other but saying nothing of value (as is natural on twitter).
I think it’s speaking about women who “allow” bad behavior.
Like, maybe the man’s mom does all this chores for him without asking, so he comes to expect it. His wife, who is not his mother, says he has to do his own laundry and maybe puts their foot down about the whole “weaponized incompetence” some men use. The man is surprised, because he didn’t expect his wife to be “less forgiving” than this mother.
For daughters, sometimes daughters (or just children in general) , as an outside observer to the relationship, can tell that one parent is shit (in this cause, the father). When the wife may go, “He didn’t meant it, he’s just tired,” the daughter may not be “as forgiving” and just say he is abusive.
However, I don’t think either of these are gender specific. Just depnsends on the dynamic at play.
Yes. I mean I’m a man and I had no trouble understanding the post but for some reason it is very hard for some people
I’m right there with you. I’m utterly confused.
What is there to forgive? Is thore some inherent shittyness in men that needs overlooking on the part of women, or suppressing on the part of men?
Or is this just talking about how gender equality as improved with each generation, so as the same dudes age, the younger women in their lives are asking them to be more and more fair?
Not inherent, no, but culturally ingrained crappy behaviours? Sure.
Absolutely, but those shouldn’t be overlooked by anyone, and forgiven only once someone has made the effort to unlearn that shit.
Is the “profound” message here really just that as younger women enter the lives of their aging husbands and then fathers, they tolerate less and less of the historical sexist shittyness, as they’ve grown up a generation later than the previous main female figure in their lives?
Scoffing when asked to change ones behaviour for the better is not a gendered charachter fault. No-one likes being informed that something they’ve been doing, and consider normal, is bad, actually.
And that’s not a reason not to improve. The opposite. It’s a reason to embrace self-improvement, and to learn to do ones best to skip the denial phase.
Something I think most people, of both genders, can be very good at if they want to be.
Is the “profound” message here really just that as younger women enter the lives of their aging husbands and then fathers, they tolerate less and less of the historical sexist shittyness
I’m not sure how profound it’s “supposed” to be, but I think that’s basically the message, that’s what I took from it at least.
You see, it’s simple: men bad
Incel alert
Not just that, they are worse than women in every way. (I want equality btw).
Husband’s bad
Men stupid
There is a fine line between valid criticism of gender roles & sexism.
An example of the former would be, “Men are dangerous for women”. Of course not all men are dangerous, but it describes the experience of many women & how they have to navigate the world, to not be assaulted.
This one describes the dynamic of a relationship between individuals & assigns a thought pattern to one of those individuals, based on their gender.
Maybe I missed some nuances here & I would be glad to be enlightened, but this looks like plain sexism.
There’s a long, documented, researched, history of men being raised to expect things from women. It’s not just housework but all kinds of things are taken much more seriously when a woman does something “wrong” than when a man does. It takes a lot of serious introspection and effort to break out of that programming so it’s not a surprise that the majority of men don’t, or only do so partially. The default state is that this stuff is sort of “invisible” because it seems so normal to how things are. So no, this is a factual description of a “standard” behaviour for men that only some are able to avoid.
If you at all accept that there are harmful but culturally ingrained gender roles then this is a natural consequence of that for anyone who hasn’t deeply and actively questioned them. Then as those roles are indeed slowly being broken down it stands to reason that each successive generation is less willing to put up with them - but if you still see them as normal it will come as a surprise.
There’s a long, documented, researched, history of women being raised to expect things from men too. But if you seriously think this is the average expectation of men towards women, then you should go outside and touch some grass. Just because toxic gender stereotypes exist, does not mean you have to acknowledge every bullshit sexist stereotype as the truth.
If you at all accept that there are harmful but culturally ingrained gender roles
The problem is that all too often those harmful gender roles are only called out as being harmful to women, not to men, but they are. The solution to the gender roles issue is not digging trenches between genders.
Long documents and researched history.
They say with no support.
This is a chat thread on a meme post, not an academic paper. “Gender roles exist” does not need a citation.
Women expect things from men: “women power!”
Men expect things from women: MISOGYNY !
Expectations of women of men: basic human decency, don’t rape
Expectations of men of women: be completely subservient in every way
atro_city: “these are the same picture”
Hmmm.
I’d phrase it differently. Unrealistic expectations of the opposite sex [^1] exist by both sexes, but that there outcomes for women when the stereotypes of men hold true are often more dangerous. One is saying it isn’t sexist; the other is saying that there’s a vast difference in risk. This becomes one of those tautological arguments where women can’t be sexist because sexism is redefined to mean “it can only be sexist if it’s men doing it.”
The “Would you rather a bear or…” question could be reused in a very uncomfortable way. You could swap men with a group of yoing, black, inner city men and rural white men for women. But instead of demonstrating that men are the issue and women the victims, suddenly it’d be black men who are the victims and rural white men the problem. And, yet, the fear and the risk of confirmation of stereotypes is the same - only in this case, believing those stereotypes makes people racist.
These sorts of tautologies - only whites can be racist, only men can be sexist - is sloppy, lazy, and dangerous, because it prevents introspection and always externalizes blame. I’m not saying that you are arguing a tautology, but that’s the essence of this thread: minimizing sexism against men in the basis that it can’t be sexism if rape isn’t involved. Which is exactly how this thread went, isn’t it?
I want to reiterate that I agree that there’s a false equivalency; consequences for women can be higher. My argument is that it doesn’t make it not sexism to broadly brush all men with a demeaning funny little tweet.
Also: there should be a Godwin’s Law for rape. The conversation was about household stereotypes. That was a bit of a leap.
Yes, those are the only expectations all men and women have /s
Then as those roles are indeed slowly being broken down it stands to reason that each successive generation is less willing to put up with them - but if you still see them as normal it will come as a surprise.
Except…entrenched gender roles are normal. This is expected human behaviour for 90% of the world. Equality, be it gender, age, ethnic or religious, is…just not how things work. It may be distasteful for you personally, but the rest of humanity doesn’t give a toss - Western civilisation is a thin smear of civility which only popped up in the past couple of hundred years, and what’s worked quite well for millennia is what’s still working pretty effectively for several billion people.
There is no absolute right and absolute wrong to gender equality, and that there is a regression or progression over time, merely opinions shaped by culture, background and opportunities. The events of the past 10 years have convinced me that the “good” parts of liberalism are unsustainable because people at their core are just…selfish. The only way to convince them to change something is if it is in their self interest. Regrettably, equality rarely aligns with self interest because it requires relinquishing something. Equality and equity of opportunity only exist when the opportunity exist. Otherwise it’s back to the dumb old shit we used to do.
“Normal” is a fluid term. It changes based on what the majority thinks. At some point slavery was normal and a part of life. But we as a society decided that we should move away from oppressive systems that marginalize and discriminate.
So, while it’s true that in many cultures “entrenched gender roles” are considered normal, that doesn’t mean certain people aren’t suffering from it. In fact, it doesn’t require much debate to acknowledge that in a system where there’s a power imbalance (in other words, inequality), there will inevitably be an oppressed group, and therefore, suffering.
As long as you consider “reducing the amount of suffering” an “absolute good/right”, then abolishing entrenched gender roles is an absolute good. Promoting gender equality doesn’t mean that women are prohibited from going to the kitchen and men must be stay-at-home dads. It simply ensures that these roles are a matter of personal choice rather than societal imposition.
Moreover, gender equality is not solely a liberal value; it has been promoted in various ideologies, including socialist and communist systems. While the practical implementation has varied, these systems have often supported the idea of gender equality alongside broader social reforms.
There is no absolute right and absolute wrong to gender equality
Except there absolutely is an absolute right and absolute wrong to gender equality (and more importantly, equity) - the genders are either equal or they’re not. You’ve either achieved equality, or you haven’t. You either want equality, or you don’t.
And you clearly don’t.
Lie to yourself and make up as much pseudo scientific nonsense as you like, but it won’t change that you’re just another wilfully ignorant self serving misogynist who is wrong. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
It’s not at all an uncommon story. Go to any women’s support group or site, and it’ll be a very consistent trend. A lot of people still have the old gender roles stuck in their heads, but they fail to acknowledge that some things have changed.
The big one is that women can now be financially independent. We’re only 2 generations away from women being able to open a bank in their name in the US. Before that, women didn’t have the financial freedom to live alone or divorce abusive/neglectful spouses.
The other one kind of ties into the first one, freedom of choice. It’s not as big an expectation for women to marry, and people are finding that a lot of women would prefer to be alone and single than married. Where do you think all these memes of childless cat ladies come from? It didn’t start with JD Vance. He just amplified it.
Generalizations about my out-group 👍
Generalizations about my in-group 👎
It isn’t about what an individual’s in or out groups are, it’s about what they are in society at large, and the power imbalance between them.
The point being made is that you won’t solve the issue if you divide society between men and women, instead of normal people and sexist bigots. The point is not to replace existing harmful sexist stereotypes with your own sexist stereotypes, but to come together and listen to each other.
What’s the feminized version of a circlejerk? Circlerub? Circlejill? Circlefling?
Circleflick? Circletoss?
Conflickulation
Gossiping.
Look at this point I know more women with unrealistic relationship expectations than men.
The world has changed a ton in the past twenty years. There’s been a lot of discussion about toxicity in regards to male gender roles, and fundamentals changes to what’s acceptable for a man to expect in a relationship.
There hasn’t really been that discussion in women. While many women have perfectly fair expectations, there are a lot of women who will expect a man to completely reject gendered expectations of them, while having a ton of expectations of a man. It’s almost a joke among my single male friends that the more vocal someone is about being a feminist, the more likely they’ll expect you to pay for the date.
There’s also a subculture of women behaving in ways that would be considered objectively toxic a decade ago, but have been normalized due to the whole oppressor/oppressed culture war narrative. I’ve seen women bail on long term relationships in ways that are 100 percent because they just want to sleep around. I’ve seen women push their husband into an “ethically polyamaorous” relationship that always is extremely one sided. I’ve also seen a lot of women with an “I can do better” mentality that nobody in a relationship would have to put up with.
I’m not saying women are universally awful or anything. I’m just saying I think we need to have the same conversation around how women behave that we had in regards to how men behave.
I’ve seen women bail on long term relationships in ways that are 100 percent because they just want to sleep around.
Someone got cucked and is bitter about it 😂
No my SO is a wonderful woman who is a feminist in the sense that she does not enjoy any form of gender roles. That was extremely common when we first started dating. We are both pretty happy in our relationship.
My frustration comes from watching a lot of my guy friends struggle. Just because I’m not the one being cucked doesn’t mean I appreciate seeing it in my social circles or appreciate seeing that behavior being defended.
Again, there’s a lot of dialogue about how women need to stick up for other women. The idea that men have to be in it for themselves is ridiculous.
That being said, I would have every right to be bitter if my SO pressured me into an open relationship, and my friend group watched because a small amount of women were very supportive of the idea and nobody wanted to confront them. That’s an extremely fucked up position to put anyone in.
I hate that I have to raise a son in an environment that is becoming so hateful towards men just for existing. I saw a picture of a woman at a protest against a child molester and she had a sign that says “not all men but it’s ALWAYS a man” As someone who was molested by a woman when I was a kid, that shit is offensive and aggressive.
Joke’s on you, my mother was completely unforgiving.
My wife is far more forgiving and loving than my mother ever was.
Oh boy! Gender discussion?! My favorite!
“Boy” ??!? 😤
Sounds like the moms are to blame. Moms need to be less forgiving of their sons, to better prepare them for their future relationships.
Comment section here showing the user demographics of Lemmy lol
There is no escape… 😑
(I mean, there is as far as blocking them all, but you still know they’re there, crawling all over and invading every space that exists)
well, lemmy.world has defederated or has been defederated by a bunch of progressive instances.
Idk. Lemmy.world in my book is a generic progressive instance. Marxist-Leninist (.ml) instances on the other hand….
LW is a centrist instance, if anything.
Maybe centrist on economic / foreign policy yah. I do think LW is progressive on social and domestic issues.
Where foreign = outside of the western world.
My daughter is 2, her forgiveness is not my concern.
with that mentality, it will be.
I can only care about what i care about. She can be mad or sad about my actions but ultimately helping her become independant and moral is more important than selfish desire to be her friend. I do want her acceptance and grace, but my hope is those will be side effects of being a reliable father.
Worrying about approval is something weak people do, and weak people make poor parents.
is more important than selfish desire to be her friend
I think you’re probably having too many assumptions about what people are saying, which betrays an inflexibility even stubbornness.
Worrying about approval is something weak people do, and weak people make poor parents.
“My way or the highway”, eh? That style of parenting went out of fashion for a reason.
I didnt say my way or the highway or even imply that. Just saying you gotta have strength of conviction. I make concessions and compromise all the time. I dont yell or bully my kid, but i stand firm when she acts out. Now who is making assumptions about whom?
As a father, with a partner and a mother, this makes no sense to me.
Maybe it’s because we are all happy?
There is some serious eww in these comments. Why are men so absolutely abhorrent at taking criticism? Stop being whining little boys. This whole comment section is written proof of the post itself. 90% of you sound like children on the floor having a tantrum.
It’s called Lewis’ law: “Comments on any article about feminism justify the existence of feminism”
Seriously. Reading through this thread has been insanely idiotic. Guess the criticism in the meme hit hard on some butthurt little boys anyway ¯_(ツ)_/¯
It’s nice to not need forgiving. #freedom
