I mean why 5, why 5 on each limb, why not 4 or 6. Why do our feet also have 5. Whats with our body being so symmetrical.

People who know anything about evolution, now is your time to shine.

  • intensely_human@lemm.ee
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    1 year ago

    Symmetry is useful for locomotion. It’s an easy way to get backup instances of things. By “easy” I mean it doesn’t take much “code” to accomplish for the value it produces.

    When something is more valuable and “cheaper”/“easier” requiring less code to set up, it’s more likely to be selected for.

    Basically, evolution produces organisms that work well in the environment, mainly by the environment trimming off the ones that don’t work there.

    Well it turns out you can achieve all sorts of forward locomotion just by having two mirror copies of a thing and moving the mirror copies in an off-phase rhythm. Once you’ve got that back-and-forth timing, your body just needs to tend forward and suddenly you’re mobile.

    Let’s look at it another way. One requirement for mobility is a direction. You can’t move without moving in a direction. A direction is a line. You can create movability by varying an organism’s form along the line of travel. The introduction of additional lines dilutes the motion-enabling asymmetry across multiple vectors.

    The body form that concentrates the most variation along a single line is bilateral symmetry. Radial symmetry diffuses that variation across multiple lines, and hence doesn’t create motion.

    I know I’m being really, really abstract here, but it’s a concrete fact of motion and geometry. Let me take another stab at summarizing why bilateral symmetry enable motion:

    • simplest one-line directional geometry is actually radially symmetric. Think of a coke bottle or a flower. It has a line.
    • bilateral symmetry actually has a plane, leading to more diffusion of aim
    • but bilateral symmetry makes neural control easier: your signal just has to be A-B-A-B-A-B… . Left, right, left, right, etc
    • With your radially symmetric form you need signaling like: A-B-C-D-E-A-B-C-D-E-A-B… . Like tuning the cylinders on a turboprop engine. This is how flagella move: in a corkscrew shape. It’s hard to coordinate.

    Shit I’m just making it more complex. Bilateral symmetry gives you a nice combination of directionality (enforced by the way gravity squishes that plane down into a line of movement).

    This is why you see more bilateral symmetry as organisms get larger: gravity requires asymmetric designs to be stable across the gradient. You see those circular-firing motility types at a more micro scale, where the effect of gravity is smaller. That radially-symmetric torpedo-sperm-flower-coke bottle shape needs to be in a well-organized circle in order for its thrust to not send the organism off on a crazy tangent, or best case traveling on an inefficient helical path. And even if the path is helical, that will only tend in a straight line, ie toward a target, if it’s not being distorted by gravity.

    So the microscopic realm, where gravity is more negligible, you see more organisms that use a helical strategy for motion.

    As gravity gets more primary, at larger scales, you start getting shapes like fish that always keep one side up and another side down. And the way the fish moves, despite having variation top to bottom as well as front to back, is by having no variation left to right. That lack of left-right variation allows the complementary action of its left and right to balance out to a straight line.

    Following the A-B-A-B firing pattern, the fish moves its tail back and forth and achieves forward motion.

    I hope that helped at least a bit. I know it was convoluted.

  • Atrabiliousaurus@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    The wikipedia article Polydactyly in stem-tetrapods has some explanations on how we ended up with 5 fingers and toes.

    The gist of it is that tetrapods (four-limbed vertebrate animals) evolved from a fish similar to a lobe-finned fish that had 5 sets of bones in each of its fins that evolved into fingers and toes. Some tetrapods have subsequently lost digits but the basal state was five.

    There’s a book, Your Inner Fish by Neil Shubin that’s full of this kind of stuff. Highly recommend.

  • Hobbes@startrek.website
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    1 year ago

    Once most societies decided to use a base 10 counting system, evolutionarily it just made the most sense to have a corresponding number of digits to help with maths.

      • AEsheron@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        Octopi is doubly wrong, it’s Greek, not Latin. If it wasn’t octopuses it should be octopodes, ock-TOP-oh(uh)-deez.

        • SnokenKeekaGuard@lemmy.dbzer0.comOP
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          1 year ago

          The more usual Greek word seems to have been polypous (also pōlyps), from polys “many” + pous, but for this word Thompson suggests folk-etymology and a non-Hellenic origin.

          The classically correct Greek plural (had the word been used in this sense in ancient Greek) would be octopodes.

          Octopi regards the -us in this word as the Latin noun ending that takes -i in plural. Like many modern scientific names of creatures, it was formed in Modern Latin from Greek elements, so it might be allowed to partake of Latin grammar in forming the plural.

          Still I’d prefer octopi since despite origins in different languages its now a word in english and we can use it however english speakers like and not the greek.

    • SnokenKeekaGuard@lemmy.dbzer0.comOP
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      1 year ago

      Well in summary, while scientists have unlocked the mechanism, the question of why humans typically have five fingers and toes remains unanswered. Evolution has stuck with this number, despite the possibility of having more digits, suggesting a complex interplay of genetic and developmental factors that science has yet to fully understand.

      Thats cool!

      • roguetrick@kbin.social
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        1 year ago

        Bone formation is extremely complex. Nearly all large mammals have the same exact bones in different sizes. Dogs, cats, and even bats (their wings) all have four fingers and a thumb.

  • joneskind@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    My cousin was born prematurely with 4 toes on each foot.

    Some are born with 6 fingers on each hand.

    Now, tell me more about that cookie you ate earlier.

    • PetDinosaurs@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      It’s usually chnops with the S being sulfur and adding phosphorus.

      And of course, that has absolutely nothing to do with why we have 5 digits.

  • jtmetcalfe@lemmy.sdf.org
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    1 year ago

    It’s because God had five fingers on each hand, and five toes on each foot, and he had to use all twenty to create the world. Humans have yet to unlock this potential.

  • dnick@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    Mostly it’s because, information wise, it’s almost nearly “free” to take a design and duplicate it…bilateral symmetry is natures version of copy/paste.

    With that in mind, it’s likely that non-‘bilaterally symmetrical’ organisms relatively regularly spontaneously develop it due to random mutation. Just like we often randomly find people with extra fingers or only one set of organs, over millions of generations, bilateral symmetry will naturally just happen. The difference being, extra fingers or ‘more than two’ organs rarely offer any evolutionary advantage, especially in already complex forms.

    Millions of years ago, however, very simple organisms suddenly having two brain lobes, two eyes, twice as many fins, two gills, etc….for free (informationally) and at only a relatively higher cost energy-wise could have found itself at a distinct advantage. If you can both run from predators and towards food twice as fast, and the energy cost isn’t twice as much, you’re suddenly the two legged guy at the ass kicking contest in a parade full of one legged people.