Blaming voters is just sowing division when we need unity and solidarity to fight against Fascism.
Nothing anywhere in these comments was blaming voters. I was blaming the people who organized a whole campaign specifically to sow division and interfere with support for the only possible alternative, in this election, to full-on fascism.
I also think it’s partly the voters’ fault, in addition to being partly Biden’s fault. But I was pointing out voting numbers to argue for how effectively this particular campaign had sowed division, not to say it’s exclusively their fault.
Also, aren’t you a Stalin person anyway? Shouldn’t you be happy about the collapse of the US’s effectiveness to influence events in the world? Or is the nick meant to be ironic or edgelordy?
It’s just an edgy internet username that’s rolled over, feel free to look at my profile if you aren’t sure. Dying empires always go out violently, why would I be happy about the untold level of violence that’s going to unfold when I’m anti-violence? I support armed struggle, but only because that results when greater forces prevent any peaceful solution, resulting in people fighting for their lives against eradication.
I don’t really understand what you’re getting at here. It seems like say you aren’t blaming voters, but you are if they are uncommitted voters. The Uncommitted Movement are dedicated Democratic voters that have done everything possible within the proper channels to changing the Policy of the Democratic Party to support a permanent ceasefire only possible through the implementation of Conditional Military Aid.
They organized hundreds of thousands of Democratic Party voters and get the support of dozens of Democrat Delegates. When the Party failed to give them any consideration, they staged a peaceful protest outside the DNC, which had enough room for neocon republicans to speak but not a Palestinian American. When the campaign continued not to give them any consideration, despite the significant gains that polling was showing (as linked above) and the large majority of support from not just democrats but the general population on Conditional Military Aid, the Uncommitted Movement still did everything but Endorse Harris.
They explicitly told people not to vote the Donald Trump or Third Party. They understood the dangers of a Trump administration. They did everything in their power to get the Democratic Party to reflect the will of the people and change position from unconditional support on Israel.
It was the right thing to do from a political standpoint, it would have been a massive gain. It was the right thing to do from a moral standpoint, there is no both-sides when it comes to genocide. It was the right thing to do from a Law standpoint, both domestic with the Leahy Law and with International Humanitarian Law. There was nothing but reasons for the Democratic Party to pivot on this. If they were open to changing on public pressure, that was the time. The fact that they didn’t only goes to show that US support for this genocide is bipartisan, and that the Democratic Party would rather lose and continue the genocide rather than win and take the bare minimum steps to end it.
So what did you want to happen, should they uncommitted movement just have not bothered? Should American citizens have not cared that their loved ones in Palestine and Lebanon have been and are still being killed by American weapons? I don’t, I think that’s a completely unreasonable expectation to have for people that have been directly affected by our Administrations unconditional support for this genocide. I will absolutely not blame the election results and the continuation of this genocide on the people who are anti-genocide and did everything in their power to secure a permanent ceasefire through every democratic means possible.
The uncommitted movement was at least 1.5 million people in the general election, enough to win the swing states but not enough to explain the 10-20 million Americans that were not convinced by Harris’ Campaign to go out of their way to vote. That shows that there were many other issues with her campaign. She did not address the material needs of the working class, she ran to the right on immigration and American Jingoism, and ran another neoliberal platform of ‘nothing will fundamentally change’ when people are angry at our failing institutions and desperate for change.
I can blame Biden for committing a crime against humanity by arming Israel, instead of doing the human thing and letting the electoral chips fall where they may. I’m not convinced it would have been the winning strategy in the election that you think it would have been, since there are a lot of voters in the US who are perfectly comfortable with killing Palestinians because they don’t really understand what the nature of the conflict is, and would see any arms embargo as betrayal of Israel in their time of need after suffering a horrific attack.
I can also apportion some blame to the voters who doomed Palestine, I think irrevocably, by letting Trump get elected. They can all be responsible for what’s about to unfold.
I’m definitely blaming the people who organized the “uncommitted” movement. That’s different from the voters. I keep saying the first one, and you keep bringing it back to the second one. This particular example of one person who’s personally responsible for pursuing and advocating a counterproductive strategy which will hurt the Palestinians, yes, I can definitely blame.
Alawieh was at least saying Trump would be worse, by the end of the campaign, but there were other co-founders who weren’t even saying that, who were recommending leaving the line blank or voting for Jill Stein. Well, they got their wish! Kamala didn’t win. Now, probably millions of people are going to die because of it. It’s not a game.
The uncommitted movement was at least 1.5 million people in the general election, enough to win the swing states but not enough to explain the 10-20 million Americans that were not convinced by Harris’ Campaign to go out of their way to vote. That shows that there were many other issues with her campaign. She did not address the material needs of the working class, she ran to the right on immigration and American Jingoism, and ran another neoliberal platform of ‘nothing will fundamentally change’ when people are angry at our failing institutions and desperate for change.
If I have cancer, and the doctor tells me about a treatment but isn’t persuasive enough about it, and I ignore them, and now I’m going to die, is that the doctor’s fault?
You’re holding Kamala responsible for three decades of Democrats ignoring the working class, and for Biden’s policies, and for a huge amount of misinformation attacking her about the economy or whatever to people who then bought it. Okay, sure. If she had been more persuasive or had better messaging, it might have helped. That doesn’t change the fact that if people had voted differently, that definitely would have helped.
I’m not convinced it would have been the winning strategy in the election that you think it would have been, since there are a lot of voters in the US who are perfectly comfortable with killing Palestinians because they don’t really understand what the nature of the conflict is, and would see any arms embargo as betrayal of Israel in their time of need after suffering a horrific attack.
This is not the case when you look at months of polling. It’s a net gain of +6 points overall. If you look at just the swing states and see the margin of votes Harris needed to win, the votes from uncommitted in the primaries would have been enough to overcome that gap. Even more so when you recognize that there are over twice as many voters in the general when compared to the primaries. If you think that there is evidence that her changing position would be a net negative, back it up with evidence. Because all the evidence points to the opposite.
I can also apportion some blame to the voters who doomed Palestine
The US administration has been doomed Palestine, without any chance from the Democratic Party, it would have been doomed regardless. The support for the genocide is bipartisan, as evidence of Israel failing to meet the aid required put forth by the US for the last 30 days and resulting in zero policy changes.
I’m definitely blaming the people who organized the “uncommitted” movement
And what does all this blame accomplish exactly? Nothing but further division by blaming minority groups for daring to advocate for representation. Those votes were completely up for grabs. The campaign decided to ignore them.
It’s not a game
Tell that to the Democratic Party. How can you say they actually cared about winning when they ignored so many voters in critical swing states and ignored the needs of working class Americans? It certainly doesn’t seem like the realized how important this election was and acted accordingly to win by any means possible.
If I have cancer, and the doctor tells me about a treatment but isn’t persuasive enough about it, and I ignore them, and now I’m going to die, is that the doctor’s fault?
The issue is that neither offered any treatment. One offered again the current ‘treatment’ that has done nothing to help your cancer, the other said that ‘treatment’ is bullshit and said try this snake oil instead. People are stupid, many said fuck either option, and some went for the oil not realizing it was venom. If the doctor recommended a change to a genuine treatment and warned about the dangers of the venom, it would be a very different story.
You’re holding Kamala responsible for three decades of Democrats ignoring the working class
I’m holding her responsible for her campaigning and her policies. I’m holding the entire Democratic Party responsible for the continuation of neoliberalism in the face of an existential crisis where left-wing populism was the obvious solution. I’m holding both the Democratic and Republican Party responsible for being beholden to the business class, racheting the country towards Fascism.
I’m not interested in echoing our points at each other indefinitely.
I’m sure she would have gained some number of “uncommitted” voters by verbally coming out against Israel’s actions. I’m saying there are other voters she would have lost.
I keep acknowledging that Biden deserves blame for his horrible Israel policy. You keep insisting that that represents “division” and “blaming,” because I’m not willing to also assign the exact same blame to Kamala Harris, exclusively, and hold the voters completely blameless on their side.
This will be my last message on the topic, since you seem to want to keep repeating your same arguments. I just wanted to clear up those two points.
I’m sure she would have gained some number of “uncommitted” voters by verbally coming out against Israel’s actions. I’m saying there are other voters she would have lost
That is taken into account, it’s still a significant net gain
I keep acknowledging that Biden deserves blame for his horrible Israel policy. You keep insisting that that represents “division” and “blaming,” because I’m not willing to also assign the exact same blame to Kamala Harris, exclusively, and hold the voters completely blameless on their side.
Harris’ Campaign was strongly influenced by people from the Biden and the Clinton administrations, possibly Obama admin too but I haven’t heard much of that. I couldn’t care less about blaming her as an individual. The campaigning and policies are still done at a party level for the most part. My point is that it’s useless to blame voters, vote shaming has never accomplished anything. If the Democratic Party is genuinely democratic, then holding them accountable is a meanful avenue for change. If the Democratic Party is not genuinely democratic, and instead only beholden to donor interests, then we all have a much larger problem on our hands which is exactly why solidarity and organizing with our communities, domestic and otherwise, is so important.
Nothing anywhere in these comments was blaming voters. I was blaming the people who organized a whole campaign specifically to sow division and interfere with support for the only possible alternative, in this election, to full-on fascism.
I also think it’s partly the voters’ fault, in addition to being partly Biden’s fault. But I was pointing out voting numbers to argue for how effectively this particular campaign had sowed division, not to say it’s exclusively their fault.
Also, aren’t you a Stalin person anyway? Shouldn’t you be happy about the collapse of the US’s effectiveness to influence events in the world? Or is the nick meant to be ironic or edgelordy?
It’s just an edgy internet username that’s rolled over, feel free to look at my profile if you aren’t sure. Dying empires always go out violently, why would I be happy about the untold level of violence that’s going to unfold when I’m anti-violence? I support armed struggle, but only because that results when greater forces prevent any peaceful solution, resulting in people fighting for their lives against eradication.
I don’t really understand what you’re getting at here. It seems like say you aren’t blaming voters, but you are if they are uncommitted voters. The Uncommitted Movement are dedicated Democratic voters that have done everything possible within the proper channels to changing the Policy of the Democratic Party to support a permanent ceasefire only possible through the implementation of Conditional Military Aid.
They organized hundreds of thousands of Democratic Party voters and get the support of dozens of Democrat Delegates. When the Party failed to give them any consideration, they staged a peaceful protest outside the DNC, which had enough room for neocon republicans to speak but not a Palestinian American. When the campaign continued not to give them any consideration, despite the significant gains that polling was showing (as linked above) and the large majority of support from not just democrats but the general population on Conditional Military Aid, the Uncommitted Movement still did everything but Endorse Harris.
They explicitly told people not to vote the Donald Trump or Third Party. They understood the dangers of a Trump administration. They did everything in their power to get the Democratic Party to reflect the will of the people and change position from unconditional support on Israel.
It was the right thing to do from a political standpoint, it would have been a massive gain. It was the right thing to do from a moral standpoint, there is no both-sides when it comes to genocide. It was the right thing to do from a Law standpoint, both domestic with the Leahy Law and with International Humanitarian Law. There was nothing but reasons for the Democratic Party to pivot on this. If they were open to changing on public pressure, that was the time. The fact that they didn’t only goes to show that US support for this genocide is bipartisan, and that the Democratic Party would rather lose and continue the genocide rather than win and take the bare minimum steps to end it.
So what did you want to happen, should they uncommitted movement just have not bothered? Should American citizens have not cared that their loved ones in Palestine and Lebanon have been and are still being killed by American weapons? I don’t, I think that’s a completely unreasonable expectation to have for people that have been directly affected by our Administrations unconditional support for this genocide. I will absolutely not blame the election results and the continuation of this genocide on the people who are anti-genocide and did everything in their power to secure a permanent ceasefire through every democratic means possible.
The uncommitted movement was at least 1.5 million people in the general election, enough to win the swing states but not enough to explain the 10-20 million Americans that were not convinced by Harris’ Campaign to go out of their way to vote. That shows that there were many other issues with her campaign. She did not address the material needs of the working class, she ran to the right on immigration and American Jingoism, and ran another neoliberal platform of ‘nothing will fundamentally change’ when people are angry at our failing institutions and desperate for change.
Blame can be shared.
I can blame Biden for committing a crime against humanity by arming Israel, instead of doing the human thing and letting the electoral chips fall where they may. I’m not convinced it would have been the winning strategy in the election that you think it would have been, since there are a lot of voters in the US who are perfectly comfortable with killing Palestinians because they don’t really understand what the nature of the conflict is, and would see any arms embargo as betrayal of Israel in their time of need after suffering a horrific attack.
I can also apportion some blame to the voters who doomed Palestine, I think irrevocably, by letting Trump get elected. They can all be responsible for what’s about to unfold.
I’m definitely blaming the people who organized the “uncommitted” movement. That’s different from the voters. I keep saying the first one, and you keep bringing it back to the second one. This particular example of one person who’s personally responsible for pursuing and advocating a counterproductive strategy which will hurt the Palestinians, yes, I can definitely blame.
Alawieh was at least saying Trump would be worse, by the end of the campaign, but there were other co-founders who weren’t even saying that, who were recommending leaving the line blank or voting for Jill Stein. Well, they got their wish! Kamala didn’t win. Now, probably millions of people are going to die because of it. It’s not a game.
If I have cancer, and the doctor tells me about a treatment but isn’t persuasive enough about it, and I ignore them, and now I’m going to die, is that the doctor’s fault?
You’re holding Kamala responsible for three decades of Democrats ignoring the working class, and for Biden’s policies, and for a huge amount of misinformation attacking her about the economy or whatever to people who then bought it. Okay, sure. If she had been more persuasive or had better messaging, it might have helped. That doesn’t change the fact that if people had voted differently, that definitely would have helped.
This is not the case when you look at months of polling. It’s a net gain of +6 points overall. If you look at just the swing states and see the margin of votes Harris needed to win, the votes from uncommitted in the primaries would have been enough to overcome that gap. Even more so when you recognize that there are over twice as many voters in the general when compared to the primaries. If you think that there is evidence that her changing position would be a net negative, back it up with evidence. Because all the evidence points to the opposite.
The US administration has been doomed Palestine, without any chance from the Democratic Party, it would have been doomed regardless. The support for the genocide is bipartisan, as evidence of Israel failing to meet the aid required put forth by the US for the last 30 days and resulting in zero policy changes.
And what does all this blame accomplish exactly? Nothing but further division by blaming minority groups for daring to advocate for representation. Those votes were completely up for grabs. The campaign decided to ignore them.
Tell that to the Democratic Party. How can you say they actually cared about winning when they ignored so many voters in critical swing states and ignored the needs of working class Americans? It certainly doesn’t seem like the realized how important this election was and acted accordingly to win by any means possible.
The issue is that neither offered any treatment. One offered again the current ‘treatment’ that has done nothing to help your cancer, the other said that ‘treatment’ is bullshit and said try this snake oil instead. People are stupid, many said fuck either option, and some went for the oil not realizing it was venom. If the doctor recommended a change to a genuine treatment and warned about the dangers of the venom, it would be a very different story.
I’m holding her responsible for her campaigning and her policies. I’m holding the entire Democratic Party responsible for the continuation of neoliberalism in the face of an existential crisis where left-wing populism was the obvious solution. I’m holding both the Democratic and Republican Party responsible for being beholden to the business class, racheting the country towards Fascism.
I’m not interested in echoing our points at each other indefinitely.
I’m sure she would have gained some number of “uncommitted” voters by verbally coming out against Israel’s actions. I’m saying there are other voters she would have lost.
I keep acknowledging that Biden deserves blame for his horrible Israel policy. You keep insisting that that represents “division” and “blaming,” because I’m not willing to also assign the exact same blame to Kamala Harris, exclusively, and hold the voters completely blameless on their side.
This will be my last message on the topic, since you seem to want to keep repeating your same arguments. I just wanted to clear up those two points.
That is taken into account, it’s still a significant net gain
Harris’ Campaign was strongly influenced by people from the Biden and the Clinton administrations, possibly Obama admin too but I haven’t heard much of that. I couldn’t care less about blaming her as an individual. The campaigning and policies are still done at a party level for the most part. My point is that it’s useless to blame voters, vote shaming has never accomplished anything. If the Democratic Party is genuinely democratic, then holding them accountable is a meanful avenue for change. If the Democratic Party is not genuinely democratic, and instead only beholden to donor interests, then we all have a much larger problem on our hands which is exactly why solidarity and organizing with our communities, domestic and otherwise, is so important.