I hear all this talk about women’s safety when out on the streets (a real issue which I do acknowledge) and how we as men need to do our part to make sure they feel comfortable, safe, and that we hold other men accountable when doing the same thing. Absolutely have no problem with this. But one of the main issues men have is a rise in male loneliness and the expectation to be the one to take an active role in interaction especially those that are romantic in nature. How are we supposed to take the lead and approach while keeping women safe at the same time when approaching her could make her feel uncomfortable, even in safe environments such as social groups, bars & clubs, workplaces, etc?
I found a couple of videos which explains why men are out here street harassing women. The link to this video there’s a section called “bottom line”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZiaTDxJ-rQ
The guy here basically goes on to explain that a woman is not gonna make a move on him, that he needs to show her he’s the man and have a wolf mentality. Obviously, the way he worded this is just wrong but this is the mentality I see from men who are trying to be the take charge types. I don’t think this kind of thinking comes from nowhere. Men already deal with the expectation to approach and make the first move. If you put that much pressure on men, it’s gonna make them wanna find communities that will tell them how to do exactly that. Guess where they turn to? The redpill/PUA. These are the communities that teach them the alpha-beta nonsense, how they got ideas that “a woman loves a confident masculine man, show her that by letting her feel your strong presence” and they learn messed up tips and tactics to do exactly that, which then leads to men making women feel uncomfortable.
For anyone that watches the 12 hour video of a woman walking down the street, within those hours, a lot of men came out to talk to her. I don’t think these men would be doing that if they didn’t face any expectations to be the pursuers in courtship. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1XGPvbWn0A&ab_channel=RobBliss
Over 90% of women don’t initiate interactions with men first & often expect them to do it, and I think this is a huge problem that’s contributing to both men & women’s issues. Safety is a big issue for women on the daily and I think male expectations in dating are a big factor for that. The expectations for men to do something first will make women not take an active role, resulting in most men feeling undesired (& also lonely tho male loneliness is a multi-faceted issue), and when they decide to do something about it, they turn to communities that will teach them strategies beyond the mainstream to give them that success, which then turns into having a lot of men out there street harassing women. It doesn’t just have to be street harassment. This can also happen in social groups, friend groups, bars and harassment can very much happen there.
So the first step here is for society to stop expecting men to make the first move and not just that. Stop expecting them to read signs (especially signs women gives as an invitation as her “first move” as they’re subtle, not obvious), stop expecting men to start flirting, and stop expecting men to be the first ones to initiate conversations about sex. We should start telling women to be more active (and obviously active) and do some of these things to take the pressure off of men.
This doesn’t mean that dating should completely fall into the woman’s hands. What I am saying ultimately is to not have expectations of any gender to bear the heavy burden of doing everything. Once we get rid of those expectations, then we can start implementing some gender neutral courtship rules that allows men and women to take active agency without much pressure. But I don’t believe we as a society (given our current practices) should partake in active agency with dating until we’ve gotten rid of those expectations.
Taking the expectations off isn’t going to stop SOME men from being psychos, there’s always going to be bad apples in society that makes things uncomfortable for everybody. But I don’t believe women are getting approached only by these types. Chances are, they’re getting approached by men who are dealing with societal expectations of being a man (this doesn’t mean u should entertain him. If he makes you feel unsafe just do what u have to do to gtfo there. Just cuz men have the expectation doesn’t mean u throw away your need to feel safe. If no man is allowed to approach on the streets, then any man, even if he is decent and friendly in their approach, should be doing that as that is street harassment and would make you feel uncomfortable.). How is it that the average man can go a day without having a woman or another man bother him, but women can’t go a whole day without having any man try his shot with her? This all goes back to the expectations we have of men.
We should not be doing any active courting in dating nor give out any dating advice until we have reached a point where society doesn’t expect men to be the initiators all the time. That means adults telling boys that they don’t need to take up that role and that it’s okay for women to make the first move. That means women telling their female friends to not expect guys to make the first move and do the heavy lifting, especially in the beginning stages.
We have already been told not to assume that a woman wants us to approach just because she’s dressed a certain way. We have already been told that we shouldn’t be out here bothering anyone on the streets. We have already been told that if we get told “no” or get a “no” signal, we accept it and move on. Absolutely fine with that. But we cannot have these rules and then conform men to the expectations of being the pursuer all the damn time and not expect that most of these interactions will turn into street harassment, especially when these men turn into martyrs when they do go to TRP/PUA communities that will tell them practical yet messed up tips that just end up making women feel unsafe. This is just backwards and will only ensure that this toxic cycle continues.
I never approach women on the streets. That’s weird!
It’s not hard to make women feel safe. It’s not rocket science.
I made a post at leftwingmaleadvocates about depression being the cause of male loneliness. Men’s mental health is ignored. It’s unpopular to say incels should take responsibility for their mental health and dating life.
I think most PUAs are actually “blue pilled”, not “red pilled.” I don’t think redpill is as toxic as people say. It is based on data and it hasn’t been debunked. Data is reality.
I don’t label myself as an alpha or beta. I don’t label other men either. However, I think there is some truth to them. Alpha doesn’t mean superior and beta doesn’t mean inferior. People can choose how they feel about those words.
I’m a shy guy, and I prefer to approach women. I wouldn’t want women to approach me most of the time. I think it’s in men’s nature to be the pursuer.
It’s also not mens responsibility to make women feel safe.
Just like women aren’t responsible for making men feel safe no matter what baggage that man has with women.
Saying men should exert any effort whatsoever towards women’s safety is like saying women are should be making up for every negative thing a woman did in a man’s life when she meets him.
#equality
It’s wrong and unreasonable in both cases, and we shouldn’t cater to the sexist idea that men should be doing things for women that women absolutely won’t and don’t do en mass for men
I agree.
How about making humans around you feel safe?
How about not expecting other people to handle your emotions for you, and do it yourself like a grown up?
Also how about we hold women to that standard as well.
Why do you assume I would think women should be held to a different standard?
Also, it’s not clear to me what you gain from people feeling unsafe around you? Except you maybe live in a sketchy area. Isn’t it just nice when everyone feels safe?
Mostly the part where i don’t see you in women’s forums telling them to make themselves responsible for the irrational fears/emotions of men in their lives.
Instead you are here, lecturing men about it, despite men being more at risk walking alone at night than any other demographic.
I’m not sure what you’d gain from not immediately emptying your wallet and giving me all your money. There is risk involved in not, you don’t know what the asker might do, so why not just do the effort others want you to do?
And no one is bending over backwards to make men feel safe, we’re expected to make ourselves feel safe. The double standard is very much the problem, and i’m not going to exert effort on another’s behalf until they are exerting effort on mine. Been burned quite a few too many times by people playing the “oh well if you don’t do it first, it will never happen!” card while never intending to reciprocate and wanting the lopsided situation to be the status quo.
Women actually do quite a lot of emotional work in relationships, so no idea what you are talking about.
So you feel unsafe around women? That is an interesting one, never happened to me - but people are different.
are you suggesting i’m in a relationship with all the random women (and/or people) you’re expecting me to do emotional labor on their behalf of? No?
So how is that point relevant at all? (hint: It’s not, you know it’s not, this is whataboutism trying to change the field of the discussion to a place where you feel you can ‘defend’ better, and it’s really annoying to watch and extremely obvious)
And the point isn’t feeling unsafe, the point is the double standard of women expecting men they don’t know and do not intend to know to mind read and handle any possible negative emotion of any woman at any time, which is a far different standard than what you just tried to come back with.
That’s cool dude, the guys are encouraged to do that tho
What makes you say it’s not as toxic as people say? There are definitely truths to some of the redpill, I just don’t agree with how they approach dating as well.
I watch Rollo Tomassi’s videos. I haven’t read his books. He probably talks more about it in his books. Basically, red pill is about hypergamy. Hypergamy doesn’t mean all women have unrealistic standards. There are lots of average men in relationships too.
From what I remember, hypergamy is the concept of dating up in a way. That’s fine, I did read Rollo Tomassi’s book but that was a very long time ago. But it wasn’t just him. I remember I used to watch small time redpill channels before fresh n fit or andrew tate came into the scene. Because of the hypergamy concept, many redpill have taught men to always maintain frame and power and to manipulate a woman to get sex. I even remember there was a book that had a chapter on how to cheat on a woman. That shit was messed up. Redpills also teach men that women love it when a man is dominant, that these are the lies they tell, these are the games she plays or if she chooses not to have sex with you, it means she sees you as beta or low value. This is where I take problem with the redpill. Everything else such as women wanting looks money status are okay given that we also understand we don’t take this idea to the extreme.
It depends on who you follow within the redpill community. Some people are toxic. I follow a dating coach named Alan Roger Currie. His approach was about being straightforward and honest with women. He had he beef with Rollo Tomassi and didn’t think Rollo was truly “red-pilled.” He believed in the alpha/beta stuff, but otherwise his philosophy is pretty good.
I don’t follow either of those.
I think there’s a difference between being dominant and being an asshole. It’s possible to have an egalitarian relationship once the relationship is more established.
We had this convo before on reddit. I read ARC a long time ago and he’s one of the more straight forward examples which I do like. Even Rollo Tomassi had some good ideas but there were definitely things in there that didn’t sit right with me. But from a lot of the redpill material I’ve read it’s always some variation of “women don’t love you” “you need to keep the masculine frame at all times” “you need to let her know you have options, tell her about other girls coming onto you” “you need to make them scared of losing you”. I didn’t know he had beef with Rollo though.
As for the whole dominant thing, the only thing where being a dominant could be a good thing is if it’s discussed in kink communities (where they discuss important boundaries and safe words to ensure a safe play) or you follow healthy masculine examples. But a lot of redpillers ideas of masculinity is not based on kink or honest communication, a lot of communications are assumptions via nonverbals, and a lot of mental guessing since you’re utilizing tactics to “display” value or show her you’re high value or some shit like that.
Oh, I remember now! LOL
Yeah, that can make men anxious. It is toxic. Maintaining frame was something Mystery talked about too. That was before the redpill became popular online.
In my opinion, being dominant is about initiating conversations with women. I think a man can be good and be dominant too.
Human hierarchy, since we are social animals, is much more complex than alpha/betta bro-science. And there are enough men who don’t mind be approached by wome - to just blankly state that men ate pursuer by nature.
Yes, there are men who don’t mind being approached.