The dude with a passion for septic infrastructure who wants to provide a rewarding service for the community, instead of getting yelled at by customers at the convenience store he works at to make sure he can afford the microwave dinner he’s eating that night.
Pie in the sky scenario/sarcasm aside, criticism of capitalism doesn’t mean pure anarchy. It means looking at what works and what doesn’t work towards making sure people have what they need. Money is much easier to trade people to do a service than trading a goat for 2 sheep, but that doesn’t mean that some landlord deserves 1 of the sheep and half the goat for “allowing” you to raise them under threat of starvation and homelessness.
I love the enthusiasm, but see my reply to the comment above yours. Basically: do you believe that no one should work for anyone else for money? Should every single professional be their own sole proprietorship? Who runs the marketing, bookkeeping, land management, etc for all of these people doing their work? You could have a person who specializes in doing these things professionally for other professionals, but the farther you take that idea, the more you’re just recreating the idea of employment piece by piece. Am I missing something? Honest question.
I love the idea, but I’ve always been a bit confused about the end game goal for this line of thinking. I agree with the idea that landlords are trash, but everybody still needs the ability to purchase food and pleasure goods and such, and as long as the idea of money exists, the need to work for it does also.
Companies can still exist under socialism. They can exist in very similar forms to what we have at the minute. The difference is the ownership.
I suppose the question I’d put back to you is “Do you think there is an intrinsic benefit in someone (who doesn’t do the work) owning a company vs each of the workers having an ownership stake in the business?”.
Firstly, if that is your biggest concern, then we agree far more than we disagree and we’re quibbling over details (which I’m happy to do).
Secondly, who said they do?
It of course depends on what you mean exactly by a"slice of the pie" but there’s lots of ownership models to choose from. Direct ownership is one. An employee owned trust is another. These are to a large extent solved problems - mutuals and co-operatives walk among us now, after all.
Thirdly, you mention the risk of setting up a company. If you’re not rich, why do you have to gamble your dignity and livelihood to participate in innovation? Would the world not be a better place if you could invent and create and innovate and fall back on a basic income if it falls on its face?
Finally, even if we accidentally make things a bit too equal by giving Jim the new starter the same voting rights as Bob the grizzled veteran - is that not better than the system we have at the moment where incomprehensible hoarded wealth is concentrated in the hands of a few?
It acts as a filter so that people are only expending time and resources on ideas that will likely take hold and provide value to society.
Do you actually believe that this filter is working as intended? Or do you think it ought to work like that?
In a spherical society with no air resistance I can agree with you but it feels like it would be condescending for me to point out how this system that supposedly maximises value to society is in all likelihood going to kill your children’s children.
Personally, I’m of the opinion that I don’t have a problem with capitalism, I have a problem with the consequences of modern-day unregulated capitalism. To me, capitalism is a system of abstraction that allows us to simplify the bartering of old with money. Money is a very useful metaphor for the value of goods and time spent working, but the nature of businesses is to maximize profits, and given the chance, they will do so at the expense of their employees (more so large corporations, but small businesses can be just as guilty). Modern corporate hierarchy is basically just feudalism with extra steps.
People like to work. People like to feel like they’re contributing to their community/society. What people don’t like is not getting paid a fair amount for their labor doing something that doesn’t feel meaningful or fulfilling. Doing a job you don’t like just to put food on the table often falls under this category. It’s “do a job for the sake of doing a job, or die.” Regardless of whatever job you’re thinking of, there’s people out there who will willingly do it, so long as they feel rewarded adequately for their effort. There are people who do actually enjoy being garbagemen or whatever, because they dont mind the work and feel good providing an important service for their community. This is why socialism/socialist systems are so important. Because capitalism is a system that can easily be abused if it isn’t regulated and kept in check, and socialism and capitalism can easily coexist.
There was a study done in Canada about 5-10 years back (which the conservative party stopped and tried to destroy the results of when they got elected into power) where they gave everybody of working age (something like 16 and older) $1,000 a month. What they found was that the vast majority of people continued to work, except for 2 segments of the population: pregnant women and high-school aged kids. This coincided with a general increase in the grades of students and the number of kids who went to college after they graduated. The theory was that because kids from poor families didn’t have to work jobs after school to help their parents pay for bills, they were able to focus more on their education and more could afford to go to college afterwards. And that $1,000 per person ended up back in the economy, stimulating economic growth in all corners of the town.
What we need isn’t to destroy the concept of money and manufacturing. We need to protect workers and provide the support systems that will improve the lives of the general populace, not ensure the growth of the wealthy’s stock portfolios at the expense of everything else.
The weekend was a right given to us by socialists who fought and died for the idea of being able to work a 5 day week instead of working 7 days a week. We don’t need company towns where people use company funny money to buy food from the company store, sleeping in company beds with 2 other people in 8 hour shifts for 100% occupancy in company bunkhouses - like it was in the US around the early 1900s. We need longer weekends.
Capitalism emerged from the industrial revolution, as the system of unbounded accumulation of private wealth by a small cohort of society, who contribute no labor, by claiming as profit a share of wealth generated by labor of the rest of society, depriving them from realizing the full value of their own labor.
You constructed a false dichotomy, between one case of labor being organized such workers that are subordinate to an employer, versus the other of everyone working individually.
The dude with a passion for septic infrastructure who wants to provide a rewarding service for the community, instead of getting yelled at by customers at the convenience store he works at to make sure he can afford the microwave dinner he’s eating that night.
Pie in the sky scenario/sarcasm aside, criticism of capitalism doesn’t mean pure anarchy. It means looking at what works and what doesn’t work towards making sure people have what they need. Money is much easier to trade people to do a service than trading a goat for 2 sheep, but that doesn’t mean that some landlord deserves 1 of the sheep and half the goat for “allowing” you to raise them under threat of starvation and homelessness.
I love the enthusiasm, but see my reply to the comment above yours. Basically: do you believe that no one should work for anyone else for money? Should every single professional be their own sole proprietorship? Who runs the marketing, bookkeeping, land management, etc for all of these people doing their work? You could have a person who specializes in doing these things professionally for other professionals, but the farther you take that idea, the more you’re just recreating the idea of employment piece by piece. Am I missing something? Honest question.
I love the idea, but I’ve always been a bit confused about the end game goal for this line of thinking. I agree with the idea that landlords are trash, but everybody still needs the ability to purchase food and pleasure goods and such, and as long as the idea of money exists, the need to work for it does also.
Companies can still exist under socialism. They can exist in very similar forms to what we have at the minute. The difference is the ownership.
I suppose the question I’d put back to you is “Do you think there is an intrinsic benefit in someone (who doesn’t do the work) owning a company vs each of the workers having an ownership stake in the business?”.
deleted by creator
Firstly, if that is your biggest concern, then we agree far more than we disagree and we’re quibbling over details (which I’m happy to do).
Secondly, who said they do?
It of course depends on what you mean exactly by a"slice of the pie" but there’s lots of ownership models to choose from. Direct ownership is one. An employee owned trust is another. These are to a large extent solved problems - mutuals and co-operatives walk among us now, after all.
Thirdly, you mention the risk of setting up a company. If you’re not rich, why do you have to gamble your dignity and livelihood to participate in innovation? Would the world not be a better place if you could invent and create and innovate and fall back on a basic income if it falls on its face?
Finally, even if we accidentally make things a bit too equal by giving Jim the new starter the same voting rights as Bob the grizzled veteran - is that not better than the system we have at the moment where incomprehensible hoarded wealth is concentrated in the hands of a few?
deleted by creator
Do you actually believe that this filter is working as intended? Or do you think it ought to work like that?
In a spherical society with no air resistance I can agree with you but it feels like it would be condescending for me to point out how this system that supposedly maximises value to society is in all likelihood going to kill your children’s children.
deleted by creator
Personally, I’m of the opinion that I don’t have a problem with capitalism, I have a problem with the consequences of modern-day unregulated capitalism. To me, capitalism is a system of abstraction that allows us to simplify the bartering of old with money. Money is a very useful metaphor for the value of goods and time spent working, but the nature of businesses is to maximize profits, and given the chance, they will do so at the expense of their employees (more so large corporations, but small businesses can be just as guilty). Modern corporate hierarchy is basically just feudalism with extra steps.
People like to work. People like to feel like they’re contributing to their community/society. What people don’t like is not getting paid a fair amount for their labor doing something that doesn’t feel meaningful or fulfilling. Doing a job you don’t like just to put food on the table often falls under this category. It’s “do a job for the sake of doing a job, or die.” Regardless of whatever job you’re thinking of, there’s people out there who will willingly do it, so long as they feel rewarded adequately for their effort. There are people who do actually enjoy being garbagemen or whatever, because they dont mind the work and feel good providing an important service for their community. This is why socialism/socialist systems are so important. Because capitalism is a system that can easily be abused if it isn’t regulated and kept in check, and socialism and capitalism can easily coexist.
There was a study done in Canada about 5-10 years back (which the conservative party stopped and tried to destroy the results of when they got elected into power) where they gave everybody of working age (something like 16 and older) $1,000 a month. What they found was that the vast majority of people continued to work, except for 2 segments of the population: pregnant women and high-school aged kids. This coincided with a general increase in the grades of students and the number of kids who went to college after they graduated. The theory was that because kids from poor families didn’t have to work jobs after school to help their parents pay for bills, they were able to focus more on their education and more could afford to go to college afterwards. And that $1,000 per person ended up back in the economy, stimulating economic growth in all corners of the town.
What we need isn’t to destroy the concept of money and manufacturing. We need to protect workers and provide the support systems that will improve the lives of the general populace, not ensure the growth of the wealthy’s stock portfolios at the expense of everything else.
The weekend was a right given to us by socialists who fought and died for the idea of being able to work a 5 day week instead of working 7 days a week. We don’t need company towns where people use company funny money to buy food from the company store, sleeping in company beds with 2 other people in 8 hour shifts for 100% occupancy in company bunkhouses - like it was in the US around the early 1900s. We need longer weekends.
Money and trade are older than capitalism.
Capitalism emerged from the industrial revolution, as the system of unbounded accumulation of private wealth by a small cohort of society, who contribute no labor, by claiming as profit a share of wealth generated by labor of the rest of society, depriving them from realizing the full value of their own labor.
You constructed a false dichotomy, between one case of labor being organized such workers that are subordinate to an employer, versus the other of everyone working individually.