The article accuses Israel of potentially committing war crimes in its conflict with Hamas, focusing on a siege on Gaza, airstrikes harming civilians, and evacuation orders. It criticizes the U.S. for not condemning Israel’s actions and emphasizes the need for diplomatic solutions. The piece argues that Israel’s approach could backfire politically and suggests that there’s no military solution to the conflict. It calls for the U.S. to exercise influence to deter such actions, asserting it’s in the interests of both the U.S. and Israel to prevent further civilian casualties and maintain regional stability.

  • Ace0fBlades@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    80
    arrow-down
    9
    ·
    1 year ago

    This whole situation feels like what Putin dreamed would have happened with Ukraine. A very public and brutal attack on civilians responded to with a disproportionate level of military force with the end result being the land of the initial aggressor belonging to the perceived victim.

    Putin had to invent an excuse, but he would have loved a reason such as this. Combined with Israel possessing one of the foremost intelligence agencies in the world and Egypt warning of an impending attack; this feels like, if not planned, a welcome event for the current Israeli administration.

    • breakfastmtn@lemmy.ca
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      34
      arrow-down
      6
      ·
      1 year ago

      This is such a bizarre conspiracy theory. Netanyahu will be remembered as being asleep at the wheel for the worst attack on Israel in its history – and the worst massacre of Jewish people since the Holocaust. His political career, built almost solely on his ability to protect Israelis from exactly this kind of attack, is almost certainly over. His ability to obstruct his corruption trial is too. That’s extreme risk, no reward and really makes no sense at all.

      “Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.”

      • rambaroo@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        11
        arrow-down
        2
        ·
        1 year ago

        Netanyahu openly admitted to enabling Hamas in order to delegitimize other Palestinian groups. It’s not even a conspiracy theory it’s just a fact.

        • breakfastmtn@lemmy.ca
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          7
          ·
          1 year ago

          Though vile, encouraging strong extremists relative to moderates to divide Palestinians and discredit the idea of Palestinian government is not remotely the same thing as conspiring to murder thousands of your own citizens for political gain.

          (Also, he didn’t openly admit it. There’s an unconfirmed report that he said that during a 2019 meeting. Others close to Netanyahu have said that was basically the policy whether he said it or not.)

          • sirboozebum@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            3
            arrow-down
            1
            ·
            edit-2
            1 year ago

            https://archive.md/APxHn

            I think the claim that this was Netanyahu’s strategy is a bit stronger than you think.

            This is solidly documented. Between 2012 and 2018, Netanyahu gave Qatar approval to transfer a cumulative sum of about a billion dollars to Gaza, at least half of which reached Hamas, including its military wing. According to the Jerusalem Post, in a private meeting with members of his Likud party on March 11, 2019, Netanyahu explained the reckless step as follows: The money transfer is part of the strategy to divide the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank. Anyone who opposes the establishment of a Palestinian state needs to support the transfer of the money from Qatar to Hamas. In that way, we will foil the establishment of a Palestinian state (as reported in former cabinet member Haim Ramon’s Hebrew-language book “Neged Haruach”, p. 417).

            In an interview with the Ynet news website on May 5, 2019, Netanyahu associate Gershon Hacohen, a major general in reserves, said, “We need to tell the truth. Netanyahu’s strategy is to prevent the option of two states, so he is turning Hamas into his closest partner. Openly Hamas is an enemy. Covertly, it’s an ally.”

            It has certainly backfired on him.

            Normally, buffoons being caught out by their buffoonery would be funny but it cost the lives of ~1000 civilians.

            • breakfastmtn@lemmy.ca
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              1
              ·
              1 year ago

              I don’t disagree! I wasn’t disputing that it was his policy, only that he’s openly admitting it.

              • sirboozebum@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                2
                ·
                1 year ago

                All good, mate. Wasn’t having at you.

                I do think he has openly admitted to his colleagues according to those articles.

      • PugJesus@kbin.social
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        3
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        1 year ago

        I don’t know, I really think it’s a mix. A relatively small attack would have had a similar rallying effect without commensurate vitriol towards the ruling party. It may have been that Netanyahu believed, or chose to believe, that the impending attack would not be nearly so large or vicious as it ended up - another metaphorical bottle rocket barrage that he could use to distract from his other authoritarian undertakings.

        But I do agree that any conspiracy that asserts that the current Israeli government was looking for hundreds of Israeli deaths is deluded. Clearly, they did not see or chose not to see the scale of the coming attack.

        • breakfastmtn@lemmy.ca
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          2
          ·
          1 year ago

          But in this world, Netanyahu would have to trust Hamas to stage a small attack so much that he’d have the military stand down and give them free reign for like 16 hours. Absurd. Not to mention they were already getting small attacks from Gaza and regular violence in the West Bank from the crisis they created that has spiralled out of control. Again, extreme risk for no reward. And the most certain outcome would be gaining nothing and losing his power, legacy, and freedom when caught (if he wasn’t executed for treason).

          In people’s imaginations massive conspiracies are easy to pull off. In the real world, conspiracies that would necessarily involve dozens to hundreds of people (and multiple branches of government) don’t stay secret for long – especially when they’re catastrophically fucked up. It takes just one chatty Kathy, one drunk brag, one guilty conscience, one failed attempt at blackmail, one low-level conspirator who wants a book deal to topple the house of cards. Humans are nearly as bad at conspiring as they are at assessing risk.

    • xdr@lemmynsfw.com
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      24
      arrow-down
      5
      ·
      1 year ago

      Funny how Ukraine is being supported for the reason of “fighting occupation” that is Russia and russia bad.

      At the same time, Palestine is being given collective punishment because they are terrorists for fighting for their human rights and water and food and medicine and their own homeland.

      • nexusband@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        15
        arrow-down
        6
        ·
        1 year ago

        Well the issue is how they fight… It’s a bit more complicated and not just black and white.

      • lolcatnip@reddthat.com
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        8
        arrow-down
        14
        ·
        1 year ago

        I don’t recall Ukraine targeting civilians, even though it’s clear they could cause horrific civilian casualties in Russia if they wanted to.

        • floppade [he/him]@lemm.ee
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          8
          arrow-down
          2
          ·
          1 year ago

          Israel has a lot of Palestinians prisoners who were civilians and many are children. In order to get prisoners, you need prisoners to exchange. Britney Griner wasn’t brought back from Russia using money or resources but another prisoner. Palestinians have no int’l negotiating power.

          So we live in a world that has made rules that criminalize Palestinians right to defend themselves. Some take desperate action, after 50+ years of violence and apartheid, and you’re judging the reaction and not the the thing being reacted to?

          I don’t understand logic like this. It leads to awful communities where violent people are propped up at the expense of their victims. No one responds well to apartheid and illegal annexation.

        • NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          7
          arrow-down
          4
          ·
          edit-2
          1 year ago

          I mean Palestinians don’t have an army and no means to create one. The Troubles would be a better comparison. Not perfect, but better.

    • deranger@sh.itjust.works
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      14
      arrow-down
      6
      ·
      1 year ago

      I thought Russia was the initial aggressor against Ukraine. Where’s the retaliatory angle in that conflict? Did Ukraine kidnap people from a music festival like Hamas?

      • Ace0fBlades@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        15
        arrow-down
        2
        ·
        1 year ago

        Russia absolutely is the initial aggressor in the Ukraine conflict, but emphatically insists they are responding to a threat from the Ukraine in their propaganda.

      • prole@sh.itjust.works
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        3
        arrow-down
        6
        ·
        edit-2
        1 year ago

        Do you think this attack on the music festival is the first thing that’s ever happened between Israel and Palestine? Surely you’re not that stupid.

        Israel is an occupying force and they’re forcibly removing Palestinian civilians from their family homes. They are the aggressors. They are “Russia” in this analogy.

          • prole@sh.itjust.works
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            1
            arrow-down
            3
            ·
            1 year ago

            Yeah, Israel has been oppressing Palestinian citizens for way longer than Russia’s recent incursions into Ukraine. Good point.

  • SulaymanF@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    46
    arrow-down
    7
    ·
    edit-2
    1 year ago

    Israeli president Isaac Herzog, while allowing that Gazan civilians weren’t legitimate military targets, nevertheless suggested that they bear responsibility for Hamas’s actions, saying, “They could have risen up, they could have fought against the evil regime”

    Hamas has also said the same thing about Israelis, saying that they elected war criminals and hence every Israeli has some amount of guilt. Do Israelis not hear themselves? They’re only validating the terrorists with this rhetoric.

    • prole@sh.itjust.works
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      2
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      edit-2
      1 year ago

      Victim blaming on a national scale.

      (The Palestinian people, not Hamas. Before some IDF shills jump on my wording)

  • avater@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    27
    arrow-down
    6
    ·
    1 year ago

    Wasn’t there an article yesterday that the US asked for restrained actions even against the hamas?

      • avater@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        3
        arrow-down
        3
        ·
        edit-2
        1 year ago

        I like him, but I’m also pretty biased because I’m ukranian.

        • PugJesus@kbin.social
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          2
          ·
          1 year ago

          Essentially, Biden is very much a ‘consensus’ leader. In other words, he tends not to make strong deviations from policy unless there is very broad support for them. Supporting Ukraine was pre-existing US policy and popular at the time of the 2022 invasion - so Biden intensifying it wasn’t out of character for him.

          Opposing Israel, on the other hand, would be contrary to established US policy and something that is not widely supported in the US. So Biden is very unlikely to do anything substantial to restrain Israel, regardless of how horrific the situation gets.

    • NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      8
      arrow-down
      5
      ·
      1 year ago

      They asked. That’s not really much. Israel still has a carte blanche from the international community to commit warcrimes.

        • NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          12
          arrow-down
          6
          ·
          1 year ago

          I mean they’re committing warcrimes right this moment and instead of stopping them everyone is giving them weapons.

          • avater@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            6
            arrow-down
            13
            ·
            edit-2
            1 year ago

            How are they committing wacrimes on purpose when they tell the civilians actually to fuck off and get out of the fire? As cruel as it’s sound those civilians are collateral damage, killed because the hamas is hiding between them and forcing them to stay in the warzone.

            What should they do after this horrendous crimes against their people, then to move against the hamas? Did the US not act after 9/11? Did we as NATO not act when Serbians committed a genocide in Kosovo? High civilian casualties are a welcomed effect by terrorists like the Hamas, cause they are not a regular army.

            I find it wrong what’s happens there but I also have no Idea what Israel could do different in order to save humans lives and also to defend themselves.

            • NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              13
              arrow-down
              4
              ·
              edit-2
              1 year ago

              How are they committing wacrimes on purpose when they tell the civilians actually to fuck off and get out of the fire?

              They then attack those civilians while they’re fucking off, or after they get to the location they told them to fuck off to. Not kidding they’ve done it five times by my count the past few days. They’re also attacking journalists, hospitals and the like. And don’t get me started on the white phosphorus.

              So yeah, they’re committing warcrimes.

              What should they do after this horrendous crimes against their people, then to move against the hamas?

              Well, after pushing Hamas to the Gaza ousting Netenyahu and installing a PM who’s actually interesting in peace would be a good start. There’ll never be peace—and therefore violence is inevitable—as long as Netenyahu and his party are in charge. I’m not exaggerating.

              • avater@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                4
                arrow-down
                7
                ·
                edit-2
                1 year ago

                You also can turn this around. As long as they are terrorists like the Hamas backed by the people around them there will be no peace because they have only one goal and that is to wipe the Jews out. I’m not exaggerating, they are actually founded on this, the The Protocols of the Elders of Zion are part of their charter.

                Like I said there is no easy solution and I’m not stupid enough to tell you there is one. All included parties have fucked up big time.

                • NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  8
                  arrow-down
                  3
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  1 year ago

                  You also can turn this around.

                  No you can’t, because:

                  1-Netenyahu has been standing in the way of peace since the Oslo accords, aka the when the conflict was the closest to being fully resolved (literally Netenyahu just had to follow the deal his predecessor made with Arafat and that would be it).

                  2-Hamas and Israel signed two ceasefires before, one in 2008 and another in 2012. Both included that Israel had to lift the blockade. Well that didn’t happen so both fell through. Netenyahu also vehemently opposed the short-lived unified Palestinian government because it meant Palestinians would’ve been able to work towards peace again.

                  This is what I’m talking about. Hamas had (has?) some fucked up shit in their charter, but in the end they’re not so insane as to reject reality. Meanwhile Netenyahu just changes reality to keep himself in power.

                  Also speaking of which, Hamas changed their charter in 2017 to only demand the return to 1967 borders.

            • prole@sh.itjust.works
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              4
              arrow-down
              4
              ·
              1 year ago

              You’re right, this situation JUST started with the attack at the festival. Literally nothing ever happened there before that day.

              Give me a fucking break.

              • avater@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                2
                arrow-down
                3
                ·
                edit-2
                1 year ago

                With which war against Israel you want to start? 1948? 1967? 1973?

                • prole@sh.itjust.works
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  0
                  arrow-down
                  3
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  The land was Palestine before 1948, the natives who had lived there for generations were Palestinians, and their land was simply taken from them. What the fuck do you mean they “started a war”?

    • TokenBoomer@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      20
      arrow-down
      7
      ·
      1 year ago

      It’s difficult, but don’t give in to the hate. They’re just heavily propagandized to and manipulated by the media and capitalist hegemony. They are victims too. Spread love. Free Palestine 🇵🇸

  • corship@feddit.de
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    23
    arrow-down
    5
    ·
    1 year ago

    I mean that basically what the us did after 9/11 sooooo it kinda makes sense.

    Someone attacks and then the retaliation follows hurting more people. The circle of death one would say.

    • Daiken@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      1
      ·
      edit-2
      1 year ago

      That’s the thing. You’d think America would have learned that you can’t bomb people into peace. But here they’re still supporting Israel which is doing the same thing.

        • Daiken@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          1
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          edit-2
          1 year ago

          It really has to be a question of what your end goal is. If the end goal is eliminating Hamas which is embedded in the civilian population, then the only thing you can do is to kill all 2 million people. I’m hoping that’s not a real option. Killing some will just give Hamas the ability to come back.

          If your end goal is peace then you have to negotiate. Hamas has to release hostages and disband. In exchange the Palestinian Authority would rule over Gaza in a two state peace process. I think the only legitimate solution that both sides would accept is a two state solution at this point. Palestinians want their 1967 borders back and Israel refuses to do that…that’s the heart of this issue. Israel right now can forcefully take the entire region with the western world’s backing, so they see no reason to negotiate. The only way this could ever happen is if other countries twisted Israel’s arm and forced it to negotiate. I.e. sanctions or blockade until a peaceful solution is agreed upon. This is highly idealistic and will never happen though.

  • GladiusB@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    13
    arrow-down
    2
    ·
    edit-2
    1 year ago

    US Government. Most of us wants everyone to stop killing each other and our leaders to shut the fuck up and figure out our own problems.

  • SulaymanF@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    15
    arrow-down
    9
    ·
    1 year ago

    Israel walked into a trap. Hamas knew Israel would retaliate and do so in a major way. That was inevitable. But they also knew that overdoing it would cause Israel’s new Arab allies to face some tough questions as to why they were supporting such a regime that kills Arabs at a 10:1 ratio.

    • iByteABit [he/him]@lemm.ee
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      2
      arrow-down
      2
      ·
      1 year ago

      This is like suggesting that emptying a round of an AK on someone that punched you is somehow “walking into a trap”

    • dumdum666@kbin.social
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      10
      arrow-down
      15
      ·
      1 year ago

      Of course it is some kind of a trap. Hamas wants as much civilian bloodshed as possible.

      Regarding the ratio of kills: if Israel really wanted and they discarded humanity the same way Hamas does, there wouldn’t be a Palestine anymore. They are fighting by different standards than the Hamas Terrorists.

  • WuTang @lemmy.ninja
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    10
    arrow-down
    4
    ·
    1 year ago

    the whole west world is giving permission.

    if only palestinian victims had instagram or facebook pages, we could put a name on these dead bodies and make youtube ads.

    no instagram, you don’t exist.

  • Blackmist@feddit.uk
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    3
    arrow-down
    3
    ·
    1 year ago

    The concept of “war crimes” is almost meaningless if the perpetrator has nukes.

    No real punishment will be forthcoming. It’s not like anybody else will intervene.