Men's Liberation
- Rules Added to Sidebar (If you see something report it)
We have just added some new rules to the sidebar. We hope that these rules will help facilitate constructive discussion as this community continues to grow. They are as follows:
Rules
1. Moderators reserve complete discretion to maintain a positive atmosphere, including removing comments and submissions, and banning offenders.
2. Be civil
--- Disagreements should be handled with respect, cordiality, and a default presumption of good faith. Engage the idea, not the individual, and remember the human. Do not lazily paint all members of any group with the same brush, or engage in petty tribalism.
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3. Be the men’s issues conversation you want to see in the world.
--- Be proactive in forming a productive discussion. Constructive criticism of our community is fine, but if you mainly criticize our approach, feminism, or other people's efforts to solve gender issues, your post/comment will be removed.
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4. Build upon the content in the original post.
--- It is vital to the health of the community to make sure that we are building on the work posted and not uncritically rehashing the same reactionary ideas endlessly.
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5. Posts/comments solely focused on semantics rather than concepts are unproductive and will be removed. Shitposting and low-effort comments and submissions will be removed.
6. Attack ideas, not individuals.
--- Comments attacking a user, directly or indirectly, are not welcome and will be removed.
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7. Individuals who don't identify as men are welcome to participate here.
--- Non-masculine perspectives are incredibly important in making sure that that the lived experiences of others are present in discussions on masculinity, but please remember that this is a space to discuss issues pertaining to men and masc individuals; be kind, open-minded, and take care that you aren't talking over men expressing their own lived experiences.
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8. Slurs and hatespeech are prohibited
9. Negative stereotyping and insensitivity towards marginalized groups will not be tolerated.
10. Do not call other submitters' personal stories into question.
11. Do not participate if you have been linked to this discussion from elsewhere.
12. Links to elsewhere on the threadiverse must promote constructive discussion of men’s issues.
--- Links to other threads or communities that stir up meta-drama without adding something substantial to the conversation will be removed. All comments and posts including these links will be subject to moderator discretion in order to maintain a civil, productive discussion.
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- Next steps after the bear
As has been discussed already here in this community, the key takeaway from the bear hypothetical is that it is an opportunity to truly listen to the lived experiences of women under patriarchal systems. I encourage "first response" to the bear discussion to head back to this post, as I am looking for discussion kind of after the fact. If this is your first exposure to the bear thing, head there, then pop back here after you have a good handle on the situation.
My question has two parts:
- Positive Steps: Let's explore resources for folks to act on the things they have learned from this discussion.
- Creating a Safe Space: During the course of the debate, it's likely that high emotions have led to lashing out and unkind words, perhaps even unintentionally directed towards men who may be survivors of SA themselves. Can we create a space here for listening and affirming one another about these potentially painful experiences?
- What no one mentions about the bear hypothesis
This actually provides we here in the Post-Industrial US immense cause for celebration. All of our lives(Regardless of gender)are so cushy, we have the luxury of devoting days and weeks to mulling over an extremely far fetched hypothetical, the likes of which no one who isn't living in rural Alaska will likely encounter
- Does The Men's Rights Movement Have A Future?
Inspired by this essay https://scholarworks.calstate.edu/downloads/d504rr026
The parallels between the contemporary MRM and Environmentalism are striking, and elucidated sharply in the writings of dissidents within The Green Movement, similar to those expressed in the link above. Just a few parallels
Quote: "There is a paradox at the heart of contemporary American environ- mentalism. On the one hand, its organizations are generally larger, stronger, bet- ter funded, and more knowledgeable than ever before. Membership has grown in recent years; there are now more than eight million dues- paying members of the major national organi- zations—and many more in local and statewide organizations—compared to about two million in 1980. Moreover, polls consistently show very high levels of public support for environmen- tal protection, levels that would be the envy of many progressive movements."
In a similar fashion, "men's issues" have, in a sense never enjoyed the sort of exposure that they enjoy today. While MRA organizations aren't necessarily larger and stronger than they were in the past, more of them exist than was the case at the beginning of the 2010s, especially at the local and state level. Similarly, polls consistently show that public support for initiatives like shared parenting legislation, criminal justice reform, and restoring due process on university campuses is high
"And yet: environmentalists find themselves playing defense far more than offense, devoting time and resources to fighting proposals such as drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, rather than forging new responses to crises such as climate change. Indeed, noth- ing that these large and expert organizations accomplished during the Clinton-Gore years— to say nothing of the present Bush years—com- pares to such landmark victories as the Na- tional Environmental Policy Act, the Clean Water Act, and the Endangered Species Act, which a much more inchoate movement won a generation ago."
We here at The MRM have similarly been playing defense more than offense since this iteration of the movement began in the mid-10s. During the movement's heyday between '15 and '19, our activity was mostly confined to Triggering The Libs on social media, and issuing rebuttals to things like The Gillete Ad and Brie Larson's comments( https://variety.com/video/brie-larson-crystal-lucy-awards-critics/ )via YouTube videos, rather than forging fresh responses to crises like under and unemployment in America, a phenomena which disproportionately affects men. The present MRM's achievements during The Trump years(an era which was ostensibly more friendly to MRA talking points) aren't remotely comparable to the legislative and social victories of a more inchoate movement during The 90s and The 2000s https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=10183 https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1991-06-30-9102270767-story.html https://reason.com/1994/07/01/man-troubles/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d28usWdvmSg Robert Glover published his seminal book No More Nice Guy in '02 https://archive.seattletimes.com/archive/?date=20020509&slug=niceguy09 , and Marc Rudov published his book around the same time https://www.amazon.com/Mans-No-Nonsense-Guide-Women-Succeed/dp/0974501719
James Cook and David Levy won imperfect yet monumental legislative victories, while advocates like Baber, Kammer, and Arst gave us what The Woke Warriors over at The Take now lament as The Post-Feminist late 90s-2014 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBxgEIcMB6o Ya know, the days where Askmen.com was writing from an unapologetically male standpoint ( https://uk.askmen.com/top_10/dating/top-10-signs-youre-too-good-for-her.html https://www.askmen.com/dating/dating_advice_60/80b_dating_tips.html https://www.askmen.com/top_10/dating/top-10-signs-shell-be-a-bad-mother.html https://au.askmen.com/top_10/dating/things-women-do-to-emasculate-men_3.html ); loudly as today's Ayatollahs Of Red Pill Theology doth protest to the contrary, they haven't said anything new.
Starting in the early 2000s, public willingness to acknowledge that women were just as prone to murderous acts as we men are led to the creation of the series Snapped, which didn't portray the gals they profiled as anything but the criminals that they are. In '09, one of NPR's flagship programs-Talk Of The Nation-brought the terrific Ned Holstein on to discuss the fraud that is The Duluth Model https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=106820029 , and even Tyra Banks devoted an entire hour to female on male DV, in which the perpetrator wasn't given a free pass because she was female https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdC0a_agt0E By contrast, the present day MRM is largely seen as sideshow unto itself, more famous for it's association with non-troverseries like Gamer Gate and Comics Gate than anything else. Here in '22, Third Wave Feminism still exerts the stranglehold over the mainstream media that an earlier decade of feminism did during the late 70s-the late 90s, and there's no signs of this stranglehold loosening it's grip anytime soon
"The same polls that regularly show high levels of public support also reveal this support to be quite shallow. The environ- ment rarely rises to the upper levels of con- cern. This may help explain why, despite the gulf between George W. Bush’s and John Kerry’s policy proposals, environmental issues generated almost no attention during the presi- dential campaign."
Not much of a rewrite required here. The polls also indicate that while public support for making shared parenting legislation the law of the land, criminal justice reform, and enforcing due process on campus are high, that support is also remarkably shallow, and rarely coming anywhere close to the Top 5 worries which are foremost in the minds of most Americans. This may account, at least in part, for the fact that neither Donald Trump nor Joe Biden said much about men's issues during the last election cycle, despite The MRM having enjoyed 18 minutes of fame during the mid-10s, during which time they were often blamed for Trump's victory by the mainstream media
For all of they hype around Cassie Jaye's documentary The Red Pill upon it's release, it was also largely a phenomena among self-proclaimed Anti-sJWs(the contemporary MRM is an outgrowth of this subculture, much in the same Environmentalism is an outgrown of of this subculture, much in the same Environmentalism is an outgrown of The Counterculture of The 60s)and their followers. The general public still continues to view The MRM as little more than a gaggle of socially inept and neck bearded man-babies, who blame all of the disappointment sin their lives on women, feminism, The New World Order, The Lizard People, etc etc
I could go with the parallels, but I'm not sufficiently motivated to do so. The rest of you all read Meyer's essay, and let me know where you agree with me or think I'm flat out wrong
- About the bear...
So, I'm just assuming we've all seen the discussions about the bear. Personally I feel that this is an opportunity for everyone to stop and think a little about it. The knee-jerk reaction from many men seems to be something along the lines of "You would choose a dangerous animal over me? That makes me feel bad about myself." which results in endless comments of the "Akchully... according to Bayes theorem you are much more likely to..." kind. It should be clear by now that it doesn't lead to good places. Maybe, and I'm open to being wrong, but maybe the real message is women saying: "We are scared of unknown men." Then, if that is the message intended, what do we do next? Maybe the best thing is just to listen. To ask questions. What have you experienced to make you feel that way? I firmly believe that the empathy we give lays a foundation for other people being willing to have empathy for the things we try to communicate. It doesn't mean we should feel bad about ourselves, but just to recognize that someone is trying to say something, and it's not a technical discussion about bears. What do you think?
- Justin Bieber broke down crying on Instagram. Men should pay attention.www.usatoday.com Justin Bieber broke down crying on Instagram. Men should pay attention.
Justin Bieber is sharing his tears for the world to see − and, by doing so, he's sending an important message to men.
- The Motherhood Penalty vs. the Fatherhood Bonuswww.nytimes.com The Motherhood Penalty vs. the Fatherhood Bonus (Published 2014)
A study finds that having a child helps your career, if you are a man. For women, it does the opposite.
- The Perception Paradox: Men Who Hate Feminists Think Feminists Hate Menmsmagazine.com The Perception Paradox: Men Who Hate Feminists Think Feminists Hate Men - Ms. Magazine
Feminists, on the whole, don’t hate men. We hate sexism and sexist oppression. After all, men are harmed by patriarchy, too.
- The 'masculine mystique' – why men can't ditch the baggage of being a blokewww.theguardian.com The 'masculine mystique' – why men can't ditch the baggage of being a bloke
Far from embracing the school run, most men are still trapped by rigid cultural notions of being strong, dominant and successful. Is it leading to an epidemic of unhappiness similar to the one felt by Betty Friedan’s 50s housewives?
- Want to make a fortune? Target bored young men who want to make a fortune.www.businessinsider.com America's young men are blowing their money like never before
Young guys are gambling on everything from sports to crypto — and companies have turned their appetite for risk into a lucrative new market.
- The Cultural Contradictions of Neoliberalism: The Longing for an Alternative Order and the Future of Multiracial Democracy in an Age of Authoritarianism - Roosevelt Instituterooseveltinstitute.org The Cultural Contradictions of Neoliberalism: The Longing for an Alternative Order and the Future of Multiracial Democracy in an Age of Authoritarianism - Roosevelt Institute
In a new Roosevelt Institute analysis authors Shahrzad Shams, Deepak Bhargava, and Harry W. Hanbury make the argument that neoliberalism must be understood not only as a policy project but also as a cultural project.
This is report discusses the cultural environment in which men's liberation occurs. It points out that the right has successfully weaponized neoliberal discontent to further it's anti-democratic goals. Under the heading "Self-Help Toxic Masculinists and Conspiritualists Weaponize WASH":
> Self-help, already intimately intertwined with the hustle mindset, is today being infused with deeply misogynistic propaganda by far-right popular culture figures like Jordan Peterson, Joe Rogan, and Andrew Tate. [...] Through podcasts, webinars, interviews, lectures, and books, these men and others like them are using their enormous platforms to offer solutions to the so-called “crisis of masculinity”—a conservative talking point that warps the complex and legitimate social and economic issues facing men, particularly working-class men, into a rallying cry against progress and equality—in an effort to reassert male dominance, heteronormative gender roles, and traditional patriarchal family structures. To do this in a way that reaches wide swaths of people and allows for a shred of plausible deniability, they use the seemingly innocuous language of self-help and self-improvement.
Self-help and self-improvement reinforce the "neoliberal self", "an entrepreneurial subject" where "personal grown and fulfillment are said to be attained through competition with others." But, as the report repeatedly emphasizes, neoliberalism as a cultural order generates and regenerates deep, deep dissatisfaction with it.
Reading what I've read so far, I thought to myself, "What does men's liberation mean, exactly?" (I'm not sure why this community popped into my mind...but it did). Because, without this neoliberal angle, men's liberation risks thrusting men back into a misanthropic culture as feminists. Sure, that's better than being a right-wing, patriarchal zealot, but it's not truly liberating.
While I would obviously recommend the report itself, given that it's 50 pages, I understand that's incredibly unlikely. Maybe throw it in Claude and ask it some questions.
In any case, what do you think?
- The Algorithmic Features Behind the Rise of the Manospheretheferdinand.substack.com The Fear of Boys Online
When people are fed a scary story about tech, they will listen. But is that story true? There's much more to be said about what's going in the online lives of boys and what parents can do about it.
- The Will To Change Men, Masculinity, And Love By bell hooksarchive.org The Will To Change Men, Masculinity, And Love By Bell Hooks (z Lib.org).epub : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
'The Will to Change: Men, Masculinity, and Love' by bell hooks talks about how we enforce toxic masculinity, and how men can reconnect with love and kindness...
- In the age of relentless online pornography, chatrooms, sexting and smartphones, the way teenage boys learn about relationships has changed dramaticallywww.theguardian.com 'Any boy who tells you that he hasn't seen porn is lying. Porn changes what you expect from girls'
In the age of relentless online pornography, sexting and smartphones, the way teenage boys learn about relationships has changed dramatically, writes Akin Ojumu
- What is the Triad of Male Violence and how does violence manifest against oneselfmanhelpingmen.com What is the Triad of Male Violence and how does violence manifest against oneself
What is the meaning of the Triad of Male Violence? We will see how is the manifestation of the violence against oneself
> "I’ve had many clients up and tell me that their friends, their family members, even their partners criticized them or mocked them for recognizing out loud that they were struggling. Of course we’re gonna be scared of being judged or seen as weak if we admit they’re struggling emotionally or mentally, if we know that’s happened before to others or even to us."
- The young men driving themselves to death: "Three young men smile for a photo in the pub - 45 minutes later, two of them are dead."www.bbc.com The young men driving themselves to death
Lewis Moghul and Sammy Phillips died in a high-speed crash 45 minutes after this photo was taken.
- "a feminist community for men" doesn't sound very liberating
Why are we continuing to use biased language?
- Men Are Lonely. We Explore Some Reasons Why, And What Can Be Done About Itlaist.com Men Are Lonely. We Explore Some Reasons Why, And What Can Be Done About It
How some men are taking steps to forge, or rekindle, male friendships to feel less alone.
- 'Boys are disappearing' from mental health care, as signs of depression and anxiety go undetectedwww.nbcnews.com 'Boys are disappearing' from mental health care, as signs of depression and anxiety go undetected
While girls typically show sadness through emotions, boys’ symptoms of depression may be swept aside as “typical” teenage behavior.
> Research found while antidepressant prescriptions have risen dramatically in the US for teenage girls and women in their 20s, the rate of such prescriptions for young men “declined abruptly during March 2020 and did not recover.”
- CW:SH - Why more men than women die by suicidewww.bbc.com Why more men than women die by suicide
In countries around the world, women are more likely to be diagnosed with depression and to attempt suicide. So why is the male suicide rate still several times higher than female?
- Why It's So Hard for Men to Say No to Sex and Why Saying Yes to Unwanted Sex Has Consequences.www.psychologytoday.com Why It's So Hard for Men to Say No to Sex
... and why saying yes to unwanted sex has consequences.
- Are Gen Z Men and Women Actually Drifting Apart Politically?www.theatlantic.com Are Gen Z Men and Women Really Drifting Apart?
The much-theorized political rift has yet to show up in actual voting behavior.
- Dangerous, sexist rules of how to be a man are still alive for manywww.theage.com.au Dangerous, sexist rules of how to be a man are still alive for many
Lewis is part of a wave of young Australian men who are pushing back against rigid gender norms that are linked to domestic violence, a new survey has found.
- How positive male role models are detoxifying the social media ‘manosphere’www.theguardian.com How positive male role models are detoxifying the social media ‘manosphere’
Influencers advocating for mental health, self-love and parenting are reclaiming the space from Andrew Tate and his ilk
- Deconstructing The "Gender War"
YouTube Video
Click to view this content.
Video Essay by non-binary video essayist Ryan Beard. It discusses misgony, missandry, and different strains of feminism, and explores how they approach men's issues in patriarchy.
Very interesting watch in my opinion.
- Movies that you appreciate differently now?
I have recently rewatched the movies Inside Out and Home Alone, having previously seen them while childless (I.O. as a young adult, H.A. many times at various ages).
The parental behavior draws a lot more of my attention, and it really changes the movie for me.
The parental panic when they don't know where their kid is, or if they're safe, just hits so much harder. Like, it's not that I didn't understand the movie before, I guess I just have a new appreciation for the parents emotions.
Are there any other movies that you appreciate differently now that you have different experiences?
- Twilight | ContraPoints - video essay mostly on dichotomy of dynamics in love and lust
YouTube Video
Click to view this content.
I know Twilight but, hear me out - if you are into thinking about human nature, philosophy, love, sex, sm and more I highly recommend that video essay. I don't really like to give an outline, since the essay is journey of itself.
- This community might be harmful
This community sends "All lives matter" vibes. I understand that there are issues with how men are treated and there is nothing wrong with talking about it, but it does seem a little bit like a distraction from feminism issues. Women are objectively under a lot bigger threat and talking about women rights more makes a lot more sense. Of course, mentioning how men are treated is also useful, but dedicating a whole community to exactly this part of the problem seems a bit problematic. It would be more useful for it to be about general issues of gender roles or something like that, this way it seems like it is targeting feminism.
Furthermore, I heard that unionbusting companies now are starting to focus on feminism, racial inclusion and etc. Because it makes everyone uncomfortable and devides people by some arbitary characteristics. That makes people less likely to unite in their common interests, because it is percieved that their interests are very different, which is not the case.
- Talking to Boys the Way We Talk to Girls (Published 2017)www.nytimes.com Talking to Boys the Way We Talk to Girls (Published 2017)
Stereotypically macho messages limit children’s understanding of what it means to be a father, a man and a boy, as well.
- Can Parents Prevent Their Sons From Sliding to the Right?www.thecut.com Can Parents Prevent Their Sons From Sliding to the Right?
It might feel dangerous to let a teen explore reactionary and unformed pseudo-ideologies. But no one should get canceled at the dinner table.
- Never mind the incels – Fight Club is still a vital film about masculinitywww.independent.co.uk Never mind the incels – Fight Club is still a vital film about masculinity
As the scandalous satire starring Brad Pitt is re-released in cinemas to mark its 25th anniversary, Geoffrey Macnab looks at why ‘Fight Club’ is still such a vital exploration of masculinity – despite a dubious reputation
- AI ‘Aggro-rithms’ target boys with harmful content within 60swww.vodafone.co.uk AI ‘Aggro-rithms’ target boys with harmful content within 60s
On Safer Internet Day 2024, Vodafone released a new film ‘The Rise of the Aggro-rithm’ to highlight the harmful AI algorithms targeting Britain’s teen and tween boys.