- cross-posted to:
- gunners@lemmit.online
- cross-posted to:
- gunners@lemmit.online
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This will look stupid if we don’t win the league
I’m still on the fence about this because raya has been kind of suspect in terms of saves and ramsdale is a good shot stopper and brings intangibles. Raya much better passer though.
We haven’t had a decent GK since Mannone.
Most sane opinion in this thread.
Arteta lost the league, because the team was braindead. We let alot of stupid goals, which allowed other teams to punish us.
Liverpool, westham, Southampton, Bournemouth first goal.
Now imagine if we weren’t braindead during Fulham or that stupid pass from Jorginho during spurs. That is 4 points lost already.
It’s why the defense is our strong point this season. Conceding less goals allows us to win more games. Arteta doesn’t want to lose games, because of dumb brain fart moments.
Arteta lost the league when Tomi and Saliba got injured on the same day
Both can be true.
Nope, we have to attribute the culmination of a million tiny contributions to a single point of failure!
We lost when we draw those 3 games. Mentality was an issue with the squad.
They should have never been in the squad against sporting at all.our league posititon at that time renderd the uefa cup meaningless for us.thats was artetas mistake.
I like this narrative because it makes it seem like we also didnt shit the bed in every other position, we lost the league because we lost to nottingham forest and drew to west ham and southampton, if we absolutely need tomiyasu and saliba to not concede 3 goals to southampton then maybe we had other problems
Arteta lost the league because he had a paper thin squad. Eventually, a mixture of having key players out and other key players burnt out lost him the league to a squad with superstars.
Don’t overcomplicate it. Holding, Sambi, Elneny don’t get a sniff anywhere else in this league.
Holding hasn’t played a single minute for the team in 13th and we rocked up to the Etihad with him last season
The stat about long pass completion percentage is the key here - Raya 2nd in the league and Ramsdale 22nd. That’s such a huge shift but people keep saying it’s a sideways move. You’ve gone from the least accurate long passing keeper in the league to the 2nd best. It doesn’t directly show up in highlight reel saves but in terms of game flow and ball retention arguably it is more important.
People say it’s a sideways move because so far what we have seen is a sideways move. I don’t give a shit what stats you read out to me from his time at Brentford. I care about his performances for arsenal and thus far he has been worse than Ramsdale.
It includes his stats from Arsenal this season…
He hasn’t been worse, hasn’t been as good as he was for Brentford but he’s still been better than Rambo. People like Aaron so for them Raya’s mistakes stay longer in their minds than Ramsdale. But Rambo has been average to below average as a keeper for us since his first few months. If he’d kept the form he had wen he first moved to us, I’d be equally as aggrieved by him getting replaced but imo, he plays like a small club keeper. Needs to be busy to show his best.
How has he better than Ramsdale?
He has made four point dropping mistakes in 10 appearances.
I remember the last 15 minutes against palace, down to 10 men and Ramsdale just hoofing it long and it going to a palace player every time and coming straight back! My heart couldn’t take it! He must have been told to do that because he kept doing it. But it didn’t and still doesn’t make sense to me, we trust our ball playing defenders and our ability to play out from the back. Why did we abandon it in that moment surely that was the best way to relieve pressure?
Clearly wasn’t instructed given he’s not first choice for those reasons
I’m pretty sure that’s why Ramsdale has been replaced. When the pressure came on him he chose to hoof the ball repeatedly and put his own image ahead of the needs of the team.
Raya will keep playing it short even after making a mistake.
Agree.
Arteta wants a keeper to have his foot on the ball and draw the opposition in to create space. Raya takes those risks more frequently and while that can lead to a greater opportunity for scary moments or mistakes % wise he creates more of the situations that Arteta is asking for whereas Ramsdale has been more risk adverse.
You’ve gone from the least accurate long passing keeper in the league to the 2nd best
is that what the stat is saying? it doesn;t say anything about it just being for keepers in the article
Yes it’s just keepers.
Let’s not forget that this stat was key to our win at City. After the goal, we drained like 10 minutes just having Raya hoof it to the wings and then working the ball back to him. Ramsdale couldn’t have sustained that nearly as long.
Exactly - too many people still struggle to judge keepers past making world class saves when a keepers value is now so much more than that - and even then Rayas saves over expectation numbers are far better than Ramsdales
Fwiw, I also think keepers are the single hardest player to judge by eye, because good keeping is often about avoiding the memorable moments. Ramsdale will make a world class save from time to time, but Raya just catches the cross.
Completely agree which is why I tend to lean on the data (saves over expectation relative to xG, distribution and progression numbers, cross claiming numbers) and Raya excels or is at least very good in all these areas. Problem is the “eye test” that people remember is him misplacing a few 40 yard passes which have ended in a goal - for example the Lens goal from his misplaced pass to Tomiyasu - 95 times out of 100 that doesn’t end in a goal but Wahi just pulled some magic out of his arse and all of a sudden people are disproportionately attacking Raya because of it - and because its early into his “controversial” elevation to our starter it sticks in the mind more than it would with any other keeper
Bear in mind that, comparing the statics from last season means nothing. You cannot compare the number of passes (be it short or long) between Brentford and Arsenal, when our ball is inside the opponent’s half most of the time.
Even when you compare just their games for Arsenal Raya is a much better long passer than Ramsdale
It’s not comparing the number - it’s comparing a percentage
I hate to be all “ackshually” but it’s comparing percentiles. The difference usually doesn’t matter but it does here.
We’re we expecting him to turn around and publically say ‘oh shit my bad, shouldn’t have done that’?
There are tons of games in the season. As long as Arteta plays Rammers enough throughout the season I reckon he’d be content. It’s just Arteta tends to rely on one person and freeze another out. Which really makes you wonder why he basically lied to everyone’s face about doing rotations when his tendencies weren’t that, and didn’t show it after. There’s no doubt for EPL games Raya is the keeper that give us the most confidence.
That was a basic generic media response. Did you really expect Arteta to say “nah i rate raya more than ramsdale so he’ll be starting all CL and PL games from now”
As a journalist, they can only print what you say. As a fan, it’s up to you to read between the lines.
Using only stats to compare players is weak but there’s a consensus Ramsdale is a better shot stopper than Raya but there isn’t really a stat that shows that from the last 2 seasons.
I think there is a prevented goals metric that shows Raya well ahead of Ramsdale as well
I think what Ramsdale excels at is pressure situations, big games, and pulling off spectacular saves.
But to judge consistent goalkeeping ability one must take the stats into account which clearly show Raya ahead of Ramms.
I still think this is a big gamble from Mikel when you consider squad dynamics and club culture - players need to know that they can trust the manager. Rammers is top quality, stands to improve further, is loved by his teammates and fans, and as far as we know he has always given 100% on and off the field. He’s also signed a big contract with Arsenal just before we signed Raya. Getting rid of Ozil, Auba, and Leno have all worked so far and we’re justifiable, but at what point do players look at one of these instances and conclude that it could happen to them too?
Isn’t that the point of becoming one of the very very best in the world?
Are there players at City, Barca or Bayern who think they are irreplaceable? Or that the manager will not bring in competition for them, if it will lead to the greater success of the group?
The very best players don’t get scared, they get better.
You say other players might look and wonder if it could happen to them. I say, maybe that’s exactly what Mikel wants, so that the players who don’t fancy a fight can opt out. And the players who are absolutely determined to win can see that Arsenal is a club where the manager is the same.
I can see your point and it’s completely true. The romantic in me wants my attachment to players to be rewarded and for them to go on to be club legends, but it seems like top football clubs today can’t function that way and still win big trophies.
Wenger would never have done this, and always picked his players’ futures ahead of blindly chasing success, but we wanted ruthlessness and can’t seem to digest what comes with it now that we have it.
Look at what happened with KT as well. By all accounts never a problem in training, or any ethics, but just dropped. I would say that due to his injury issues he could not be relied upon for the entire season, but that does not preclude you from bringing him on late on, when Zinchenko forgets defending. If the marginal improvement Raya brings over Ramsdale is the reason, then Gabriel Jesus and Zinchenko shouldn’t even be allowed in training. Look at the injury issues Jesus had + Zinchenko’s lack of ability.
This whole thing seems very hypocritical and un-Arsenal.I don’t subscribe to the ‘hypocrisy’ argument since there are different reasons which can be deeply tactical why a coach has strong preferences for some players which we can’t see as fans.
Regarding KT I’d back Arteta - he did not fit the manager’s vision for the role. Zinchenko is a defensive liability but going forward he’s quality, and also he is anyway likely behind Timber in the pecking order.
If anything the cases of KT and Zinchenko show that Mikel is consistent with his mentality of constantly looking to improve the squad at all costs. Also if our interest in Toney and Vlahovic are true, then it’s clear that Mikel also sees issues with Gabby J as our primary #9 and wants to upgrade the position.
Gabby J was probably envisioned as an elite versatile forward option, rather than just a 9
Problem is we only every play him in the 9 role besides when saka is injured.
Hard disagree that there’s a consensus on that.
Cause one was playing for Arsenal, the other Brentford. Look at ladt defensive stats. United players look better. Why? Because they had more to do.
Alright now compare this seasons Raya to last season Ramsdale. We’ve faced less shots per90 yet Raya is still ahead of Ramsdale on everything other than saves
His passing looked great for us against Sheffield. Can’t say I’ve ever been impressed besides that, no matter what stat gets thrown at me…
Arteta is stubborn af.
ramdsale is strong backup for now, his few appreances show he is not better than raya
Narrator: it wasn’t
Bro thought he was a comedian 💀🤣
Did anyone feel like Ramsdale was ever as bad as his stats suggest? He was excellent last season.
He’s not perfect, but he was nowhere near what stats alone would say
To me Ramsdale was really great first 6 months. In the 18 months since he’s been fine-good but not excellent.
Raya looked pretty great at Brentford but probably hasn’t been as good as we’d hoped since bringing him in. Still think he’s likely the better long term option but definitely Ramsdale has a chance if he can get back to that first 6 month form
I feel like Ramsdale has a higher ceiling than Raya. It’s just whether he can push through his mental blocks and gain more confidence. I feel like Raya is at his peak and won’t become a world leading gk, which is what Arsenal need to push on into being true title contenders.
How do you know he is at his peak?
I don’t know if I thought Ramsdale was excellent, but I know every time I looked at the statistics for him I thought “What? Really?”
Keepers don’t have any good statistics. More precisely I don’t think the constructs people use to try and measure keepers are any good, which means conclusions drawn from them are unsound.
Ramsdale seems particularly unfortunate where whatever he’s doing that makes him look competent is just not captured by any (commonly used) statistic, while the aspects of his game that I would tend to agree he’s not great at are better measured and he just so happens to do quite badly on save quality measures that, in general, I don’t think are any good but are nevertheless popular.
We replaced very good with great.
That’s how champions are built.
He wasn’t bad per say but he was much better with his distribution in his first season. When on a title charge your key players have to be top performing in areas that are vital part of the team. When going up against teams with Allison and ederson who can accurately bypass any press with long ball distribution, having ramsdale 22nd in the league which may be below some people’s second choice keepers, isn’t good enough. Raya was a keeper who was providing performances distribution wise up there with the best in the league as shown by the stats in the article. Arteta simply sees him as a clear upgrade from a distribution standpoint.
Literally the best keeper in the prem after Allison and Ederson
He definitely wasn’t excellent he was good for the first half and terrible last half in fact I would say him in goal was almost as bad as saliba injury the guy was a liability for large parts of the season.
He was a league average shot stopper last year. Not excellent by any means.
I personally feel more confident with Ramsdale in goal when it comes to reflex saves and one v ones. Raya really hasn’t proved his ability to actually be a solid keeper other than passing and accuracy.
I’m a Ramsdale fanboy though and not overly keen on Raya yet as I feel he needs to prove himself here before he gets the same respect Ramsdale has.
Ramsdale was average at saves he just had some really notable saves
Another rates ramsdale for his silly antics and gestures than actual performances ramsdale saving ability last season was mid table at best.
I really like Ramsdale, seems like an amazing guy and love his antics but anyone with a function set of eyes sees Raya offers the team so much more than Ramsdale. Stats back that up as well.
To be honest our defence this season is a lot more solid but I haven’t recalled Raya really having to do anything or make any outstanding saves.
Ramsdale I have seen that, and he had an objectively less drilled defence last season than this because of rice and havertz etc.
You don’t have to go back more than a single game. He had a great save on Gudmundsson at 0-0 against Burnley.
Just glad arteta thinks nothing like you
Well I don’t see them in training, I only watch 90 minutes from the stands every week and that’s what my perception is.
Burnley? Spurs?
Spurs?
I do see this a lot. seems just like england bias/pashun merchantry helps him out a bit. Raya doesn’t have the same PR. He just does what Arteta wants and gets on with it
Ramsdale came clutch quite a few times last season, even this season like against man city vs foden when they were already 1-0 up. My biggest frustration with him tho was the low driven shots across goal. They almost always went in.
This. I can’t believe I had to scroll this far to read this. The low driven shots are his weakness but before the Rays signing he had shown improvement.
Let him leave for fucks sake, footballers’ careers are too short to spend bench-warming. Mikel’s intentions are clear - Raya’s the first choice and Ronnie will not get those rotation minutes.
Those who wanted him out when he spoke out against homophobia will be fun to watch when he puts in a 10/10 performance against us for Chelsea.
I like Ramsdale and he did have fantastic games and made unbelievable saves however I get the feeling that the multiple times where he gave the ball straight back to the opposition which led to a goal swayed Arteta to make a decision sooner rather than later. Time will only tell whether it was the right thing to do and it is a shame how things have happened but unfortunately at the top level complacency costs you games so you have to be cut throat. Also don’t admit on camera you have a concentration issue that won’t help your case.
Publicly saying that he has concentration issues was such a weird thing to do.
My only gripe with this issue is the level of toxicity involved in the change. I can understand the stats, I can understand the manager wanting different things from his keeper. Maybe Mikel even did everything the right way (at least internally).
I cannot grasp how toxic this has been allowed to become in the media and in the fanbase though.
Yeah, just support whichever keeper starts for Arsenal, what happened to ‘competition is good’ or ‘oh our backup keeper isn’t good enough’?
Ah well, can’t please everyone.