“Jill Stein is a useful idiot for Russia. After parroting Kremlin talking points and being propped up by bad actors in 2016 she’s at it again,” DNC spokesman Matt Corridoni said in a statement to The Bulwark. “Jill Stein won’t become president, but her spoiler candidacy—that both the GOP and Putin have previously shown interest in—can help decide who wins. A vote for Stein is a vote for Trump.”
Jill Stein needs to go, condemning Putin should be the easiest thing in the world to do for any non-Russian.
she has done that
Or anyone not in Putin’s pocket. Yes.
Stein’s campaign manager, Jason Call, said via email that “the Democratic Party has no respect for actual democracy or the voting public,” calling the attack a “tired and sad commentary on a party that refuses to serve the American people with good public policy.”
Yes, this is true.
“We’re seeing a desperate empire now. We are seeing a desperate colonialist settler empire whose ways of the world and whose control over the world has been lost,” Stein said as she inveighed against U.S. healthcare, housing, and military policy.
This is also true. But she has no shot at winning and is literally only capable of helping the orange bad. We need rank-choice voting. Until we get that, she should shut up and drop out. Especially with the threat of the orange bad.
This just isn’t true. Third party candidates put pressure on the duopoly candidates to adopt a diversity of policies that better represent the interests of the country.
If the democrats wanted to make the Green and PSL parties irrelevant this election, all they have to do is drop their unconditional support for Israel’s genocide.
Democrats desperately want to be able to run with status quo positions without risking a loss, and stein makes that just barely difficult enough as to go after her candidacy, because that’s easier than attacking her policy positions.
I agree, but that doesn’t mean Jill Stein has a chance of winning or that she doesn’t help the orange bad.
Nobody said she has a chance of winning. She only helps “the orange bad” if you blame voters when a candidate loses rather than that candidate fucking around and finding out with their policy positions. We learned this with Hilary. You can’t just coerce people into voting for you by threatening them with the other guy.
The Green party is already irrelevant. Their only power is siphoning away votes every 4 years. If they actually wanted to affect political change, they would establish a broad presence in local politics, establish a voting and policy record, and build a third party that’s actually viable as their local candidates advance to the national stage.
That takes a lot of time and a tonne of effort, though. Apparently it’s just easier taking money from Putin to gum up a presidential election.
What constitutes power to you, exactly?
A voting block big enough to spoil a victory is power: that’s what makes organizing of all types valuable to begin with.
Nobody, not even Jill Stein, believes she has a chance of winning against Harris and Trump. The reason why it’s still important for her to run is because she represents a dissenting group of voters who find something unacceptable about Harris and Trump, and if that group is enough of a threat then Harris will be forced to address it else risk loosing her campaign.
Liberals are mad because that threat is potentially big enough to spoil their victory, and that’s reason enough to be happy she’s around. Harris needs to cut her support of Israel, otherwise Green and PSL voters (and uncommitted voters) will remain a threat to her campaign. That’s reason enough for me to cheer them on.
Nope. Stein voters are lost voters. The Harris campaign will ignore them and move on. There is no message being broadcast or received during this election. Voting for a party that can only help install the worse of two evils is 100% a move of immense privilege, not a moral high ground.
They have the power to put a dictator in place by leveraging people who don’t understand the primaries are for your ideals and the main election is for strategy. Until we get ranked-choice voting (and we won’t) your moral posturing does the opposite of what you think. In reality anyway.
Stein voters are lost voters.
Then how is she stealing votes?
They have the power to put a dictator in place by leveraging people who don’t understand the primaries are for your ideals
Tell that to Cori Bush and Jamal Bowman. AIPAC money bombed them out of their seats by way of primary.
Who are their voters supposed to endorse in the general, now that they’ve been replaced by genocidal apartheidists?
If Stein was not in the running, some of her voters may have settled for Harris. As it is, she’s muddying the water. It’s not Harris’s fault a bunch of people are going to ignore the money trail and vote Stein. Harris is going to focus on the people who might be swayed.
As for Bush and Bowman, no argument. That was rotten & PACs need to die. Those two were doing something right for AIPAC to go after them.
If Stein was not in the running, some of her voters may have settled for Harris.
If Stein is forced off the ballot by partisan officials and heckled in the media as an antisemite, you’re going to scare away far more Harris-curious progressives than you attract hard-Green Jill fans.
As for Bush and Bowman, no argument. That was rotten & PACs need to die. Those two were doing something right for AIPAC to go after them.
All true, but now who do their base voters turn out for in the General? They same AIPAC swine that ousted them? Just because they have Ds after their names?
Or do they protest vote third party, to prove they still exist and don’t approve of either mainstream candidate?
They have the power to put a dictator in place
That’s power, bud, but it’s misplaced. It’s Harris that has the power to respond to those voters, or to ignore them. As you mentioned, the cost of ignoring them could put a dictator in place.
Their vote puts a dictator in place and Harris is the bad guy for not stroking their egos enough? Gotcha.
Candidates get themselves elected by pledging to address voters’ concerns - if anyone has an ego here it’s Harris and liberals like yourself who think they are owed votes they haven’t made any effort to get.
The only reason Jill Stein has a chance to spoil this election is because we’ve got a large and rabid minority of voters who actually like what Trump is serving. If Trump were down 10 points in the Swing State polls, Jill Stein’s 1% wouldn’t matter. If Harris had 270 EVs worth of locked in states, Stein could take double digit vote counts in places like Oklahoma and California and still be a non-factor. But in this closely divided of an election, with the political system the USA has, your purity crusade will result in possibly the last election you ever get to vote in, and at minimum, 4 years of policy that will utterly destroy every priority you have.
And do you really think cutting support for Israel will gain more votes for Harris than it loses from people who happen to think Israel has a right to exist and a right to defend itself? Here’s a hint. It won’t. First, we are certain you’ll just find some other reason not to vote for Harris, and second, it’ll piss off moderate and conservative Jews and run them straight into the Republican’s arms. According to this article, there are somewhere around 3.6 million Jews nation-wide who vote for Democrats. In 2016, only 1.4 million people nation-wide voted for Jill Stein. If you only turned off half the Jewish vote while capturing every Stein voter there is, you’d still have a net negative, and I’m absolutely sure AIPAC would go apeshit over this (and they support Republicans too), and Stein voters would just find another reason they couldn’t possibly vote for the Democrats.
So, if you are really dumb enough to think a protest vote is a good idea, know that your meaningless protest will cost LGBTQ and minorities and non-Christians and women HERE in this country dearly, while doing absolutely nothing to help the Palestinians. It’ll also fuck the Ukrainians over, and maybe even the Taiwanese, as I can see the Shitgibbon leaving them to China’s tender mercies. Muslim voters who back Stein over Harris will own-goal themselves as they’ll be the first to be attacked by Project 2025 and Trumps Mass Deportation/“Remigration” plans. LGBTQ, Minority, and women Third Party voters will also bring their doom, while White, Male, and passable-as-Christian Third Party voters will benefit from their privilege but best get down to being Good Americans because the Trump Goon Squads will be set loose looking for Leftist rabble to round up.
The only reason Jill Stein has a chance to spoil this election is because we’ve got a large and rabid minority of voters who actually like what Trump is serving. If Trump were down 10 points in the Swing State polls, Jill Stein’s 1% wouldn’t matter. If Harris had 270 EVs worth of locked in states, Stein could take double digit vote counts in places like Oklahoma and California and still be a non-factor. But in this closely divided of an election, with the political system the USA has, your purity crusade will result in possibly the last election you ever get to vote in, and at minimum, 4 years of policy that will utterly destroy every priority you have.
And that means Harris must campaign to those voters and affirm their most wildly fascist opinions about minorities and immigrants?
What kills me is that I would be happy to discuss the ways in which MAGA actually does pose a danger to the republic, if not for the fact that Liberals will use it as a point of comparison for just how fascist of a candidate they themselves would still be willing to vote for, as if the act of voting is some twisted real-life game of “would you rather”.
According to this article, there are somewhere around 3.6 million Jews nation-wide who vote for Democrats. In 2016, only 1.4 million people nation-wide voted for Jill Stein. If you only turned off half the Jewish vote while capturing every Stein voter there is, you’d still have a net negative, and I’m absolutely sure AIPAC would go apeshit over this (and they support Republicans too), and Stein voters would just find another reason they couldn’t possibly vote for the Democrats.
A majority of americans support halting arms shipments to Israel. Harris would lose a lot fewer votes than you’re suggesting (especially while Trump is currently torpedoing his own campaign with antisemetic ramblings and accosiating himself with known neo-nazis), and would gain more than the Green votes you’re suggesting (because a lot of people will simply stay home rather than vote green because they feel completely disenfranchised by both parties). But setting the electoral math aside for a second: eligibility odds aren’t a valid defense of being complicit in the most public international genocide in recent memory.
So, if you are really dumb enough to think a protest vote is a good idea, know that your meaningless protest will cost LGBTQ and minorities and non-Christians and women HERE in this country dearly, while doing absolutely nothing to help the Palestinians
The democrats are already ceding ground to anti-LGBTQ and minority movements. Harris is already running on anti-immigrant and anti-asylum policy, she is already turning away from protecting LGBTQ rights in red states across the country, she is already fanning the flames of anti-Muslim sentiment. In pursuit of defeating a loud and obnoxious fascist, Liberals are actively affirming those fascist fears while abandoning minority and working class protections. They are proudly advertising themselves as the more pleasant fascists, the steady hand that will provide order to those who are afraid that immigrants are bringing drugs and weapons across the boarder to kill their children.
No, I do not believe that any of the groups you mentioned would be ‘safe’ with Harris in the white house, and I don’t think those fascist fears and violence will suddenly go away if we lightly affirm their legitimacy.
And that means Harris must campaign to those voters and affirm their most wildly fascist opinions about minorities and immigrants?
This poster wants you to believe that what Harris is doing to cater to the middle makes her equivalent to Trump. It does not. She’s trying to bring everyone to the table, and believes that not screaming to the high hills how Left she is is the best way to make Trump fail again in 2024. I do think she should go more like “Hey, Moderate Republicans. Thanks for your vote. Please, stay during this election, but after the Election is over, go back and fix your party. We’re not going to become Republican Lite over here for you. You need to fix your party so America can have two choices again,” but I won’t hold it against her if she doesn’t do that. I certainly don’t buy the notion that Harris is catering to Fascists, though…
What kills me is that I would be happy to discuss the ways in which MAGA actually does pose a danger to the republic, if not for the fact that Liberals will use it as a point of comparison for just how fascist of a candidate they themselves would still be willing to vote for, as if the act of voting is some twisted real-life game of “would you rather”.
This poster could go far by discussing how much MAGA poses a danger to the republic. Hell, it could also promise to hold Democrats accountable, by threatening primary opponents and reminding Dems that the only reason it voted Democrat this election was how dangerous MAGA is, but it doesn’t seem this poster wants to talk about that at all…
The democrats are already ceding ground to anti-LGBTQ and minority movements. Harris is already running on anti-immigrant and anti-asylum policy, she is already turning away from protecting LGBTQ rights in red states across the country, she is already fanning the flames of anti-Muslim sentiment. In pursuit of defeating a loud and obnoxious fascist, Liberals are actively affirming those fascist fears while abandoning minority and working class protections. They are proudly advertising themselves as the more pleasant fascists, the steady hand that will provide order to those who are afraid that immigrants are bringing drugs and weapons across the boarder to kill their children.
I can’t have a conversation with anyone who spouts this level of bullshit. Attention: Mods. I am specifically calling the above paragraph as bullshit, not the poster, so please don’t ban me under Rule 3. I won’t address what I think the poster is because of course, Rule 3 only allows me to call ideas and subjects of articles {expletive}, and while I do think some pointed expletives aimed at this poster and others is more than warranted, I’ll stick with pointing out the flaws in this poster’s reasoning.
This above paragraph is utter and complete bullshit. It is so far opposed to reality that I just can’t have a discussion with this poster if it believes this nonsense. This both-siders-bullshit is exactly the kind of Russian Propaganda that was peddled in 2016 to convince people to throw their votes to third parties. This included the IRA spreading propaganda to convince African Americans not to vote, creating 10 Youtube Channels, multiple Facebook channels, 571 videos, and more than 1.2 million followers in their attack on Black voters. I brought all the receipts for this, just check the hyperlinks above.
If this poster truly believes this, there’s no common ground for discussion here. Dear reader, keep in mind that this poster was preceded by posters just like it in 2016 confirmed to be IRA agents, who pushed very similar bullshit about Hillary Clinton that this poster and others like it are pushing today. If you don’t want to read the link, here’s some key numbers: 1017 videos posted over 17 channels, 3840 twitter accounts with 72 MILLION engagements across 1.4 million people, and 44 fake news Twitter accounts with 660k followers between them, peddling disinformation.
If you think this poster is on the right course, you’re as lost as it is, and you’re doing Putin’s dirty work for him. We can and do criticize Team Blue here, but there’s a difference between saying Dems aren’t liberal enough for some of our tastes and saying Dems are just as Fascist as the Republicans. I call that bullshit out here, and invite you to reconsider if you buy this bullshit or not.
PS: I’m glad to see that it seems like /r/politics on Reddit and most other forums on the Internet, save for the fever swamp of conspiracy theories, aren’t being filled with bullshit like this. I guess the moderators of most mainstream forums see this bullshit as Russian Propaganda and shut it down. So maybe I’m overestimating how much impact this bullshit has. Still, I want it to have ZERO impact, so a-countering I go. As much as the mods here will let me go, at least.
It is so far opposed to reality that I just can’t have a discussion with this poster if it believes this nonsense.
My pronouns are very publicly displayed in my displayname, you can fuck off with your intentional dehumanization. It seems like you’re going out of your way to not accuse me of illegitimacy directly, but you sure as hell seem content to imply I’m a russian asset, a bot, or both. While I appreciate your intentional avoidance of accusing me of those things to my face (not for a lack of clearly wishing you could without getting moderated), I’d appreciate it even more if you could resist the urge to speak to me/about me in the third person and refer to me as ‘it’.
If you think this poster is on the right course, you’re as lost as it is, and you’re doing Putin’s dirty work for him. We can and do criticize Team Blue here, but there’s a difference between saying Dems aren’t liberal enough for some of our tastes and saying Dems are just as Fascist as the Republicans. I call that bullshit out here, and invite you to reconsider if you buy this bullshit or not.
There’s a lot of accusations in this response, and I’m not willing to sift through them all individually, but I think I can easily address this one.
I’m not accusing the democrats of being ‘the same’ or ‘as bad’ as republicans. I’m not even accusing them of being fascist generally. What I am accusing them of is entertaining the fascistic and xenophobic fears of fascists in order to appease them. Of course this is a campaign strategy to beat Trump - that is not my objection. My point is that Trump is simply a symptom of a far deeper fascistic impulse that is growing within the American electorate, and affirming those anxieties (while abandoning any defense of minorities actively under threat, including Trans and Muslim Americans in order to ‘not alienate’ ““moderate”” voters (i feel gross even writing that in double scarequotes)) only fans those flames of fascism.
If you’re only concern is winning a single election against a loud and obnoxious fascist bafoon, go ahead and turn a blind-eye to the rhetoric the democrats are using in order to appease those “”“”“moderate”“”“” voters. But if you’re at all concerned about the growing fascist movement in the US, you would be wise to acknowledge concerning trend of democrats ceding political and rhetorical ground to the right. Legitimizing fascist fears and welcoming them into the democratic party isn’t going to help drive them away, and only a fool would think so.
PS: I’m glad to see that it seems like /r/politics on Reddit and most other forums on the Internet
Huh, what a strange place/moment to drop an advertisement for reddit. If you’re not a fan of federated social media, then you are more than welcome to fuck off back to Reddit.
edit: is this the reddit you think is so much better moderated and free from bots lol?
all they have to do is drop their unconditional support for Israel’s genocide.
First off they are not unconditionally supporting the genocide. Both Biden and Harris are working for a ceasefire. The fact that Israel is not complying or even giving it any serious thought is because we have a plurality of people in this country who do unconditionally support Israel and will not vote for a party that does not actively show support for Israel. So if Biden or Harris actually came out and said they would stop providing weapons and money to Israel they would lose 10 times more votes than the number of people who are voting for Jill Stein because she’s being critical of them for “unconditional support of Israel’s genocide”.
If you are voting for Jill Stein because of the whole Israel issue. Then you deserve to lose all of the rights that get taken away if and when Trump wins. For reference see Roe versus Wade.
They have not conditioned their lethal aid on anything, despite the fact that US law prohibits the sale or transfer of weapons to states engaged in war crimes. Even though it’s literally illegal for them to be sending them weapons still, they refuse to even suggest that stopping arms transfers is on the table. That’s a far cry from ‘working for a ceasefire’.
they would lose 10 times more votes than the number of people who are voting for Jill Stein because she’s being critical of them for “unconditional support of Israel’s genocide”.
A majority of Americans Say Biden Should Halt Weapons Shipments to Israel
Regardless, if a majority, or even an electorally-important minority of Americans wanted to nuke Iran, it would still be morally abhorrent to defend doing so simply because “if we don’t, the other guy will do it himself”. Americans love to pretend like they would have been anti-fascist rebels if they had lived in Nazi germany, but this is exactly how the Nazis were able to take power in the first place. Liberal moderates, desperate to hold on to power - or, more charitably, limit the power of fascists - will concede all but the most immediately tangible of human atrocities to fascists. They will happily hide behind their privilege and sacrifice the subjects of the fascists’ violence just so that they can remain at the table now completely taken over by fascists and fascist enablers.
Democrats don’t have to simply fall in line with what “”“”“the majority”“”“” of voters want; in fact, they themselves have been actively messaging and defending the very support you’re arguing they are powerless to resist. They were the ones making the case for continued support for Israel. They could be making the case that Israel must be brought to bear for their crimes, or at least sanctioned/embargoed until their hostilities and escalations stop. But they don’t - because they know that the US’s interests lie in ignoring the war crimes that Israel is committing. Without Israel, the US would lose influence in the ME, and by extension risk being cut off from the abundant resources that exist there to the waxing multi-polar influences that are building in the east.
Leftists don’t simply oppose the sale of arms to Israel simply because they’re committing genocide with them; we oppose the strategic imperialist asset Israel itself represents.
Then you deserve to lose all of the rights that get taken away if and when Trump wins.
Oops, your mask slipped a little there, friend.
I remember arguing with several cons on various comment sections, and more than a a few, when made to answer the question, basically said the U.S. must support Israel no matter what. The no matter what part was true even after asking them hypotheticals about behavior including finding out they were carrying out actual genocide. This was before Gaza.
So when dingus lefties talk about “Genocide Joe”, my first thought is “I remember when I turned 14, too”. The cons - including donnie - would be far, far worse. The cons say we must support Israel. No. Matter. What. And it’s not because they give a damn about Jews, no matter how much crocodile tears they spill over “anti-Semitism”. Many of them think the Jews have to be there for their precious son of Yahweh to come back on a cloud or whatever, and start condemning Jews that won’t convert to infinite torture. While these people supposedly watch from heaven. Seriously, the “morals” of psychopaths…
If the democrats wanted to make the Green and PSL parties irrelevant this election, all they have to do is drop their unconditional support for Israel’s genocide.
There’s a lot more in the table than that. But it would be a good start.
Kamala doubling back on Fracking is driving off as many environmental voters as her endorsement of the Israeli genocide is scaring away Arab-Americans.
But that’s the joke. People think if Greens just vanished, all their voters would be forced into the Dem block. Instead, repeatedly calling them Trumpies means they’ll be that less likely to vote for you.
People get upset when you point to multiple things you’re looking to concessions on, otherwise yea, I’m 100% in agreement.
In an effort to meet those people halfway: Harris only needs enough of green/psl protest voters (or at least needs to not loose too-many democratic votes, depending on your philosophical bent) to win. How many voters that is, and which issues are the ones to win them to her ticket, are questions very much up for debate. Even if she can even win them back is questionable at this point.
But the one thing that is certain is that if she were to somehow loose despite everything that’s going right for her, it’ll be because she abandoned those issues in favor or courting anti-immigrant and status-quo republicans. Her loss will be 100% attributable to the fucks not given for the issues driving voters to third parties, and that’s nobodies fault but her own.
Well said.
Sort of shocking how the common opinion here is, “vote how I tell you or you are a Hitler enabler”.
And then they wonder why they aren’t changing peoples minds.
literally only capable of helping the orange bad
The folks voting Green have already folded on the other options. If you’re picking a fight with Jill, you’re only driving her base farther from your candidate.
The point is she doesn’t have a base. She’s never actually worked to get one. She comes out of the woodwork every 4 years to poke holes in the liberal candidate talking points and cause these rifts in the left. The people who vote for her are almost all independent voters who are “sick and tired of voting for the lesser of two evils”. Yet not one of those people will get up off their asses to push their local legislatures to enact ranked choice voting in order to provide an actual avenue for a third party candidate to get elected.
The point is she doesn’t have a base.
I’ve got perennial Green voters on my street. They’re in their 70s. The entire reason the Green Party exists stems from liberals who were burned out of the Carter/Clinton neoliberal turn during the Reagan Era.
She comes out of the woodwork every 4 years to poke holes in the liberal candidate talking points
We’ve had Democrats promising universal health care, public higher education, environmental protections, and global demilitarization for the last 50 years. She doesn’t have to poke holes, she simply sticks her fingers through the Swiss Cheese track record that half a century of corporate liberalism has created.
not one of those people will get up off their asses to push their local legislatures to enact ranked choice voting
That’s a flat out lie. The Greens and Libertarians are the only two significant activist forces for RCV, and state legislative races are some of the few spots where they can consistently win races. What’s more, these parties very often emerge from activist movements that are rejected by the ostensibly-friendly Big Two parties. Sierra Club produces Green voters in droves, not because they wouldn’t happily caucus with Democrats but because Democrats despise any kind of activist Green movement. Gun clubs and tax abolitionist groups churn out Libertarians for the same reason - mushy pro-cop/pro-war Republicans and Tax-and-Spend governors like Abbott and DeSantis drive libertarians nuts.
The singular reason why Democrats are terrified of the Green Party in this election is that it offers an outlet for all those disaffected Arab-American voters no longer welcome in the party. Its the same reason Republicans shat the bed over Ron Paul and Gary Johnson. They know they can’t deliver on their promises and keep their mega-donor funders happy, so they need to be the only voice in the room making these campaign pledges. Otherwise, people start testing the water with alternatives.
I’m tired of people being stupid. I’ve been tired of it for 20 God damn years. I’m folding on stupid people. I don’t care if I drive them away anymore.
I hear this from Trump voters all the fucking time. Are we really are just getting a choice between Red MAGA and Blue MAGA?
Blue MAGA is a lie created by tankies because they want Trump to win so Russia can better genocide Ukraine.
Blue MAGA is a lie
Harris’ conservative culture play
From camo hats to libertarian rhetoric, the Kamala Harris campaign is staking its claim to symbols of conservative identity.
I don’t give a single shit about Harris trying to appeal to the right wing. Good. She should be trying to appeal to the right wing because abstentionism on the left is evidently rampant. And I think that, because compromising is far better than allowing Trump to win.
You are actively creating the conditions for her to pursue this strategy, and criticizing her for pursuing it. Fuck you and everyone like you.
Want to change it? Set an outline of manageable policy points that you’d like to see her compromise on if she wants you to vote for her, and then make that popular. Abstentionism doesn’t work, idiot.
I don’t give a single shit about Harris trying to appeal to the right wing. Good. She should be trying to appeal to the right wing
The liberal two button problem
-
Harris is only electable if she parrots fascist talking points.
-
Harris is only electable if her progressive opponents are purged from the ticket
Damn. Sounding more and more like Trump’s attitude towards libertarians.
-
Jill is here to collect some donations then disappear for 4 years. Again.
As someone in a state where my presidential vote is very much decided… I voted Gary Johnson in 2016. I know there are a lot of very real critiques of the libertarian party and/or platform, but it’s really sad the green party puts it to shame… it’s not a high bar.
My point being… wtf is she still doing doing this stuff? Libertarians push local candidates all the damn time, and make a push for the presidential seat when they can, but soundly rejected Trump, and hell, even in 2016 you had the VP libertarian cantidate saying “vote Hillary”. Like I am upset as anyone else, but if you’re still in the green party you’re just kidding yourself… and thats from a freaking libertarian that hates his party a good 50% of the time.
I absolutely despise libertarians. But I approve this message.
Lol. I get it. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it a million more times I’m sure: it’s got a lot of problems, but I like the framework the NAP provides. It’s explicit and provides a place to work from.
They’re not all crazy “public roads are theft” folks. And again, remember the party soundly rejected trump. IME a lot of libertarians are generally supportive of social programs, so long as they’re egalitarian.
But what really rustles jimmies is the cut and dry stuff. I will never be able to get over democrats being on the wrong side of gay marriage, even in the name of pragmatism. I’ll support them out of pragmatism, but I’m bitter about it.
But to the point of this thread: very little of that matters if there’s not a next election. I’ll take the party that fumbled gay marriage in the late 2000s VS. The one that wants to kill my friends 1000/10 times.
And again to the point of this thread: it’s telling, and gives me faith in my party, there is no “Garry Johnson” this year.
then stop bitching and unfuck your electoral system
Oh, it can be done, but that means amending the Constitution.
To do that you need 290 votes in the House, the people who needed 15 tries to get a simple 218 vote majority to pick their own leader.
Then you need 67 votes in the Senate, a body that’s incapactitated by needing 60 votes to overcome a filibuster.
Then you need ratification from 38 states, when 25 went to Biden in 2020 and 25 went to Trump.
There may be a way around it, but that doesn’t kick in until enough states with 270 Electoral College votes agree to it, and that hasn’t happened yet either:
Man, it’s incredibly hard to change anything.
Yup! And intentionally so!
Thomas Jefferson’s preference was to throw out the whole thing and re-do it every 20 years. Can you imagine?
https://www.nps.gov/articles/000/jefferson-memorial-education-each-new-generation.htm
“It has then, like them, a right to choose for itself the form of government it believes most promotive of its own happiness; consequently, to accommodate to the circumstances in which it finds itself, that received from its predecessors; and it is for the peace and good of mankind, that a solemn opportunity of doing this every nineteen or twenty years, should be provided by the constitution; so that it may be handed on, with periodical repairs, from generation to generation, to the end of time, if anything human can so long endure.”
Can you imagine? The Constitution was ratified in 1788, took effect in 1789.
So, by Jefferson’s standard, we should be on our 11th Constitution by now? Ratified in 2008? Next one due in 2028.
Forget debates. I would pay good money to see an episode of Jeopardy with Harris, Stein, and Trump.
Fine, I’ll vote for a different 3rd party candidate. Clearly the DNC just wants to make sure we don’t vote for Stein and they don’t have an issue with anyone but Harris, right?
It’s funny because if Democrats just did what people wanted in the first place people would vote for them
Which people?
You know, the people who want the same thing I want.
The single-issue Gaza voters who ignore everything else at stake besides Gaza.
Yes, genocide is such a wedge issue. Can’t they compromise on killing all the
JewsPalestinians?It’s crazy to me that democrats use extreme language when speaking of the risks of middle eastern conflic escalating into Europe, but then dismiss it as an unimportant issue as soon as it’s pointed out that they are actively contributing to that escalation.
or maybe you are hyperbolizing and the truth is in the middle somewhere.
‘Hyperbolizing’ what, exactly? In the middle of what, exactly?
It would be easier to tell if you’re suggesting a false compromise if you were at all specific about what you’re talking about instead of making vague centrist gestures.
I’m referring to the two extreme positions you wrote. Not sure how that’s so vague, but I’ll spell it out for you anyway. I’m suggesting you presented two hyperbolized straw men in your comment above. Very few democrats, if any, do either of these:
use extreme language when speaking of the risks of middle eastern conflic escalating into Europe
dismiss it as an unimportant issue as soon as it’s pointed out that they are actively contributing to that escalation
the position “in the middle” that’s closer to reality is something like “It is a major conflict that has the potential to escalate, but it’s also not the only thing at stake in this election.” That isn’t a false compromise, that’s just how it is.
“It is a major conflict that has the potential to escalate, but it’s also not the only thing at stake in this election.”
Idk what to tell you, that’s a dismissal of the issue as unimportant, even if simply unimportant as compared to the other things you say are at stake.
All these articles attacking Stein my make people not vote for her, but they aren’t going to convince anyone to vote for Harris.
If you don’t want Trump, you only have one choice.
I don’t want any cheerleader for genocide.
In what world has Trump done anything to suggest he’d support or push a ceasefire?
Harris has both said and done more to push for a ceasefire than literally every other candidate on the ballot.
There is no third party candidate that has a hope of winning right now, thus every vote for third party is the same as not voting.
And not voting is effectively the same as voting Republican, so you’re either voting for Harris, or you’re supporting Trump.
Where the hell did you see me say I would ever vote for Trump? Harris has not done a fucking thing to “push for a ceasefire”. The strongest thing she has said, as far as I know, is that she " wouldn’t be silent about what is going on in Gaza". The very next day, she published a letter condemning the people who protested Netanyahu’s visit. The dem party is full of outright and de facto Zionists, who preferred to have conservatives speak at their convention rather than Palestinian Americans. I’m not voting for, or supporting either Trump or Harris. Harris does still have time to win the votes of people like me. I hope you’re calling your dem reps and demanding it.
Are you people allergic to good faith arguments?
No, but it seems like you people are.
They arent going to convince anyone to vote for Trump either, so what’s your point, comrade?
My point, comrade, is that all this desperate energy spent tearing down Jill Stein would be better spent changing the policies that are turning off potential dem voters.
There’s photos of Shill Stein dining with Putin. How much more evidence do you need?
She wasn’t even the worst at the table, that “honor” goes to convicted felon Mike Flynn:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Flynn
More on Flynn and his connecting Trump to Russia here:
p.s. Trump’s “National Security Advisor”.
Oh oh but if I mention it to certain folk, that’s “old news” and “why do you only ever bring that image up” and “lol libs sure are grasping at straws”
Fascism and political interference does not have an expiration date.
political interference does not have an expiration date.
Sure as fuck doesn’t, as we are still being impacted by the Clinton administration interfering in 1996 Russian elections that ended up resulting in Putin as President.
You know what, you convinced me. I’ve decided not to vote for Clinton.
His bad decisions still haunt our society.
I heard Clinton even helped Hitler bein elected so … shuffles papers … I am NOT going to vote for … shuffling papers more … Biden but for Trump!
-“Hey boss, you sure it’s still Biden?”
-“Da da.”
We are still plagued with horrible decisions made by previous Democrats. Clinton giving us Putin is one of them, Biden and his crime bill is another one
Provide links from the Senate Intelligence Committee investigation showing there was wrong doing with the event. They’ve investigated and found nothing. Implying guilt by association is dishonest and should be labeled misinformation.
Here’s the problem, legally, private citizens can’t engage in diplomatic actions like this:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/953
“Any citizen of the United States, wherever he may be, who, without authority of the United States, directly or indirectly commences or carries on any correspondence or intercourse with any foreign government or any officer or agent thereof, with intent to influence the measures or conduct of any foreign government or of any officer or agent thereof, in relation to any disputes or controversies with the United States, or to defeat the measures of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.”
You would think anyone who just announced their candidacy 6 months before this dinner would know that…
But then you’d also think anyone running for President would also know how many Congressmen there are…
https://www.salon.com/2024/09/12/jill-stein-schooled-on-in-brutal-breakfast-club-interview/
And yet the Senate intelligence committee found nothing wrong or nefarious.
you’d also think anyone running for President would also know how many Congressmen there are
One would think the former 2 term VP under the first black President would remember his name
Great point. I definitely won’t vote for Biden this year.
It was ok when your team was doing it but one error from someone else and it’s the end of the world and completely makes them ineligible.
It was OK when my team was doing what? Which “team” do I play for? You seem confused.
The system is rigged and you are being play around, how much more evidence do you need?
World leaders do meet one another, and often shake one another’s hands. Jill Stein is not a world leader.
a vote for Stein is a vote for Trump
It’s also… not a vote for Trump.
If Stein has 50% of Trump’s votes, Harris still wins, by a knockout.
Again. This is not how this works.
Stein isn’t taking Trump voters. She’s a Left-Wing distraction candidate. In some systems, like RCV or Proportional Representation, her candidacy wouldn’t hurt the Dem as long as voters were thoughtful with their votes. But in FPTP, which we have here, she’s definitely a threat. We’re bitterly divided here, to the tune of close to 51% wanting lefties and 49% wanting righties. All she needs to do to throw this election to the Right is poach 3% plus whatever Right-Wing third party candidates there are. Since the Right is unifying behind the Shitgibbon, it’s real easy for her to spoil the election and get all 51% who want progressive and/or liberal policies to get conservative policies instead. This is even worse when you realise Conservatives have gone Fascist.
It’s not conservative voters who are going to be voting for her.
There is next to a zero chance that MAGA is gonna vote for Stein. If that ain’t true, then prove me wrong. I’d love to see the analysis.
i’m glad the “you’re pro-genocide if you vote anything but 3rd party” morons finally shut the fuck up around here
edit: LOL
have you had ANYONE turn around and say " you know what, you’re right!" on lemmy? or ANYWHERE?
gtfo russian cumfarts
Ahahaha oh no the “office workers” are still all over here, their content usually just gets downvoted into being permanently hidden and they’ve stopped picking fights outside of their own posts.
their content usually just gets downvoted into being permanently hidden
At first I read this as something that existed at the post level, too. Man, I sometimes wish something like that existed - posts below a certain rating could just be hidden (like Slashdot, for instance).
It does kinda, if you browse using the Hot sorting stuff with 0 or less net score typically won’t show up unless you go quite a few pages back.
Don’t forget there was also a bunch of government-backed troll farms shut down recently
And yet I’m still here. Weird
Someone can be carrying water for Putin while not actually being on the payroll, because they’re dumb enough to fall for all the propaganda.
Only the United States of America is allowed to spread propaganda. Good luck with your epiphany.
Are you really trying to act like this is some big reveal? Dude, we know. We’re the #1 target of the pro-US propaganda. We see it all the time. It’s why we’re pretty good at spotting other country’s propaganda when we see it.
Knowing that propaganda exists, and being able to interpret through media literacy, are two different things.
Probably doesn’t help that Stein refuses to call Putin a war criminal.
https://www.newsweek.com/jill-stein-vladimir-putin-war-criminal-1954965
"Hasan later asked Stein why she had labeled Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu a war criminal, but not Putin.
“Well, as John F. Kennedy said, we must not negotiate out of fear and we must not fear to negotiate,” she replied. “So, if you want to be an effective world leader, you don’t start by name-calling and hurling epithets.”
“So, how will President Stein negotiate with Israel then if you’ve called Netanyahu a war criminal?” Hasan asked in response.
“Well, because he very clearly is a war criminal,” Stein said, prompting Hasan to ask: “So Putin clearly isn’t a war criminal?”
“Well, we don’t have a decision—put it this way—by the International Criminal Court,” Stein said.
The ICC has issued an arrest warrant for Putin, alleging that he is responsible for war crimes. No such warrant has been issued for Netanyahu, whose war on Gaza has killed more than 40,000 Palestinians. However, the chief prosecutor of the ICC has applied for an arrest warrant for the Israeli prime minister.
“There’s an arrest warrant for Putin and there isn’t an arrest warrant for Netanyahu, so why is Putin not a war criminal, but Netanyahu is?” Hasan asked.
“Yeah. Well, let me say this. We are sponsoring that war. We are sponsoring Netanyahu,” Stein responded. “He is our dog in this fight. That is why we have a responsibility to pull him back.”"
LOL, that just proves his point. I read the transcript, and Stein had every opportunity to clearly and definitively repudiate Putin. Not only did she refuse to do so, she continues to refuse, dishonestly misrepresents being called out on her bad faith as a “misunderstanding,” and doubles down with bullshit "both sides"ism.
In fact, that press release has sealed the deal on convincing me that she’s a deeply unserious piece of shit and a Russian asset.
So congratulations troll farm vatniks, you’ve played yourselves.
I must’ve missed when Kamala Harris called Netanyahu a war criminal.
Just out of curiosity, do you think it would help her win the election if she did? She boycotted his speech in congress. She is treading a really thin line, and the only winning gambit seems to be keeping her messaging neutral until after the election. Rocking that boat right now gives the Republicans further ammunition to use against her, and will embolden Netanyahu to militarily escalate.
At the moment she can hide behind the veil of the current policy being driven exclusively by Biden rather than inserting herself in the middle of things, and therefore presenting additional leverage to her enemies. I don’t like the situation, but I don’t see how it was possible to play things any differently while still preserving a serious chance to win the election.
We normally see eye to eye on a lot of things, but in this case I think it is disengenuous to conflate the motivations of Jill Stein & Kamala Harris.
I like how everyone who is aware of the terror America has caused all over the world is immediately a Russian asset.
I like that she has the balls to rightfully call our living current and past presidents war criminals. Not every american is so brainwashed.
And before you ask I’m voting Democrat. I like that Jill Stein is putting pressure on the Democrats, and I can’t say I disagree with anything in the statement they released.
Clearly she has no problem with calling world leaders war criminals, so why did she stop so short with Putin?
Probably because she was trying to make one point and the interviewer was trying to make another one.
The interviewer won rhetorically. I think it takes self awareness and humility for the green party to realize this mistake and immediately issue a clarification in plain words.
You actually cannot truthfully say that she has not called Putin a war criminal anymore, but that hasnt changed how people here are talking.
People need to ask themselves why the democrats would throw mud rather than debate policy with the green party. In my opinion, its shameful and makes me feel worse about likely voting democrat this November.
Look at me wishing for clean politics though.
There are other third parties you can vote for
How does it feel when you rationalize ethnic cleansing? Did you ever imagine you’d be this person?
You’re pro genocide if you vote for anyone that has explicitly voted to arm and fund the genocide
You are pro genocide if you are supporting those funding and providing weapons for genocide
LOL it took a whole hour
you kids are slacking
and no. voting for harris does NOT make me “pro-genocide,” no matter how much you wish it did.
have fun watching jill stein get a single digit percentage of the vote. if that. but don’t feel like you accomplished something by throwing your vote away, because you didn’t
Not even gonna try to rationalize it huh.
Why do you love Trump so much you’re trying so hard to get him into power?
LOL ok, you’re cool with throwing your vote away
that doesn’t mean anyone else is obliged to waste time “rationalizing” NOT throwing their vote away to you
do what you want. just know that your third party vote did NOTHING for palestine. and NOTHING for anyone else either.
I wish it meant we did nothing for palestine. Instead of it meaning bombs and funding continues to pour into the arms of the country thats killing them.
so throw your fucking vote away
Nah im voting for a candidate that has not voted to arm and fund an ongoing genocide.
Telling someone they are throwing away their vote because they won’t support your team is right wing authoritarian voter suppression.
Nice straw man. You’re throwing your vote away because you are voting for a candidate that has zero chance of winning, while one of the two actual options is a literal fascist who will give Netanyahu carte blanche in Palestine and the other realizes she has to walk a narrow tightrope before November if she wants to get elected and have any influence over Israel whatsoever.
But I know you know this already.
If the Green Party was a serious political party, then why do they never care about down ballot elections? Why don’t they ever care about local elections? Why do they disappear, only to crawl out from their hole every four years to sow division among American voters?
Netanyahu has Carte Blanche right now. The US has completed over 500 weapons deliveries to Israel. And Harris has already said she’s continuing the shit we have going on right now.
There are plenty of greens holding local offices right now, but you would know that if you looked instead of relying on someone to feed you propaganda that’s designed for their purposes.
Why is it every 4 years Democrats rise from the sewers and talk progressive and populous then go right back to legislating like their Republican counterparts after the election?
Telling someone their vote is wasted or meaningless is right-wing authoritarian voter suppression.
“Teams” don’t enter into it.
One candidate poses an existential threat to our country and way of life.
One other candidate can defeat them.
Taking a vote away from the 2nd candidate has the same net effect as voting for the first one.
You either help beat Trump or you help elect him. A 3rd party will not win, so voting 3rd party doesn’t help beat Trump.
Both pose a threat to the country, but right now one dragged themselves out of the sewer like they do every four years to talk progressive and proactive, then proceed to legislate like their Republican counterparts after the election.
My goal is to defeat both threats to the country and our quality of life, not slowly extend everyone’s pain.
Tell us which non-genocide candidate has any sort of chance to win the election.
Man, things have gotten that bad huh. What a sentence.
The problem is that “support genocide” is being used overly broadly.
The stated policy of the Biden/Harris administration is that Israel has a right to defend itself.
Surprise! They do. Every sovereign nation has that right.
As a result of that stated policy, Biden and Harris both support providing weapons and funding for the continual defense of Israel.
https://www.npr.org/2024/08/23/g-s1-19232/kamala-harris-israel-gaza-dnc
So follow me here:
- Israel has a right to defend itself.
- The US will support that defense.
Where it breaks down is Bibi and Likud taking that defensive support and directing it into the Genocide.
That’s on THEM. The United States is making a good faith effort to provide support for the defense of Israel. Israel is intentionally misapplying that support.
Trump’s stated policy is that Israel needs to kill everyone quicker.
https://apnews.com/article/trump-biden-israel-pr-hugh-hewitt-21faee332d95fec99652c112fbdcd35d
“They’re losing the PR war. They’re losing it big. But they’ve got to finish what they started, and they’ve got to finish it fast, and we have to get on with life.”
Only one of these two policies is pro-genocide, Trumps.
Biden/Harris is pro-defense which is illegitimately being used for genocide, not at all the same as being pro-genocide.
That’s on THEM. The United States is making a good faith effort to provide support for the defense of Israel. Israel is intentionally misapplying that support.
This is not a good argument. They’re not infants, they have agency and the ability to perceive the impacts of their actions.
Biden/Harris is pro-defense which is illegitimately being used for genocide, not at all the same as being pro-genocide.
Eh, it certainly means they’re not proactively anti-genocide.
But more importantly it’s not going to move someone uncomfortable with the Democratic material support for the genocide a single iota closer to accepting that there is still a better candidate both for Palestine and for all the aspects where they’re actually good, not just not as a bad.
So is your argument that the Biden/Harris administration is blind, or stupid?
If I give my kid an AR-15 and they shoot up a school, I may or may not be culpable.
But if I hand them another AR after the first shooting, they kill again, and then I give them another, and another, and keep handing them weapons for months, and theres a pile of 15,000 dead children, then I am definitely culpable.
It doesn’t matter how many times I tell the kid “this AR is for defense only”.
Every sovereign nation has that right.
Per the UN and international law and occupying country can NOT claim self defense
Biden/Harris providing unlimited weapons and money is allowing Israel to finish the job before January 2025.
Turning a blind eye and genocide denial because it’s team blue committing it is weird and inhumane
and no. voting for harris does NOT make me “pro-genocide,” no matter how much you wish it did.
Of course not. You being pro-genocide means that you have two candidates to choose from.
Yes it does, but you have to weigh the pros and cons of your vote just like e everyone else.
Its not crazy to acknowledge that the current choices are genocide or genocide light. You can even still vote for Kamala and feel slightly bad about her stance on Israel. Wheres the problem with allowing some nuance here? Turning this into all or nothing, live or die, good or evil, is not very convincing in my opinion.
Yea well buddy, I’m sorry but I’m not going to just sit here and allow genocide or genocide light without calling you a jackass on the internet.
But I will walk up to the store right now and get another beer.
Brb
I actually don’t know if you are with me or against me, but I really like the energy of your post, made me feel like I was walking to the corner store with you.
If Harris promised to stop sending weapons to Netanyahu, how many centrists do you think would become trumpers?
Far less than all of those who would just opt to stay home and not vote.
You mean to tell me that centrists would rather throw a tantrum and withhold their votes just because they didn’t get 100% of everything they wanted, even when that would mean guaranteeing a Trump victory?
The exact same shit they’ve been accusing progressives of doing? The same rationale they use to blame progressives for Clinton’s loss in 2016?
Why does Vote Blue No Matter Who only ever work one way?
Zero intelligent ones, because everyone knows we just need someone to say it at this point.
But you know what?
Harris can’t even say out loud that she will stop the genocide.
Liberals love infantilizing everyone they disagree with. And is a sign of narcissistic personality disorder
Conservatives love showing everyone their persecution complex.
Quite binary to assume that a critique of a liberal implies that I am a conservative. Socialists. Can’t stand either one of you
And yet the hatred you constantly exude evokes conservatism and the voting you push helps conservatives. Putin would salivate at your post history.
Such an odd thing about these “i’m so communist bro!” people.
I don’t exude hatred, I point out Nazis when I see them
infantilizing everyone they disagree with
I love the smell of projection in the morning.
They don’t infantilize the right. Then again, you did say everyone they disagree with.
From the looks of it lately the line between red and blue are becoming very blurry. Harris uses right wing dog whistles with every statement.
Are you saying “the US is a fully functioning democracy whose actions represent the will of the people”?
I just want to make sure I’m hearing you right, that America is a functioning democracy…
No, it’s not a fully functioning democracy that does not represent the will of the people. The will of the people are saying they want a ceasefire, they want an end to war. Which falls on deaf ears to politicians. The only thing Democrats or Republicans ever respond to is the threat of money stopping, which was the only thing that kept Biden from running.
Any of the Stein shills want to explain to everyone why Trump (among many other awful people/companies/etc) attorney Jay Sekulow was representing The Green Party in their case against the State of Nevada?
Anyone?
Trump and his team believe the same thing Democrats do: so-called third parties “steal” votes from the dominant parties. just because they believe it doesn’t make it true
Jill Stein wouldn’t say that Putin is a war criminal. You should really listen to how she dances stupid the interview with Medhi Hassan.
The fallout/optics from that blatant fear to speak clearly about Putin was bad enough it seems that she’s now made a follow-up statement to lightly say the phrase, with qualification (after checking with daddy) and associating it only with Syria and refusing to mention Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.
in that interview she immediately says “yes”. framing it as though she isn’t saying it is just lying.
“Say it” means a specific thing. She’s given multiple opportunities to do so directly in that interview and she’s terrified of a sound bite of her acknowledging it directly. She readily says it (appropriately) about Netanyahu, she will not say or about Putin. You’re either an apologist yourself or you’re undereducated on the subject matter - either way, do better.
The propaganda has been on rapid fire lately, let me guess, they’re actually becoming a threat to the American establishment?
No, not a threat, the winner will be either Harris or Trump, but they could keep Harris from winning in key swing states.
Not our problem, we are not democrats. If Democrats lose it’s their own doing for continuing to shift their party to the right.
If the Democrats lose, everything you want and love will be destroyed. Those are the stakes.
That’s hyperbole
Have you read Project 2025? Or at least a summary?
I was aware of it and aware of its contents way before it started getting talked about on social media. It has existed for decades under various names, and it’s policies have often been bipartisan when they come for a vote. NAFTA was never presented as killing our jobs, shopping them overseas to increase profits. It was sold to us as the greatest thing ever to make the country stronger.
Like NAFTA and other proposals by the Heritage Foundation they are always presented by a republican to get public opposition out of the way. So when it’s resented again by a Democrat it’s embraced as progress.
The DNC screwed themselves forcing a drug Baron on their public. Jill Stein isn’t a traitor to the Republic like The Entire Democrat Party is, so she has a very cromulent chance, and a valid campaign unlike the Traitors to the Republic Democrats. Their scared ff Jill Stein because they made a shitty decision and it’s haunting them that they forced it on us. Eat a bag of cheetos dicks, Traitors to the Republic garbage. I look forward to your trial.
TANKIE DETECTED
Or maybe its a case like Joe Rogan and Assmongold who say they’re left-wing while extolling far-right narratives and conspiracy theories (and sometimes outright anti-scientific folly like 1×1=2), basically using it as a manipulative talking point to mislead their millions of followers (the vast majority of whom just happen to be white men with proto-fascist views of the world)
Either way, when I see it, I realize that they have lost the plot and aren’t arguing in good faith.
They want the “Democrat Party” to go to trial for (not sure for what exactly), so this could also be some MAGA idiot trying to sound smart, while telling us not to vote for Kamala.
I don’t hear Tankies say “Democrat Party” all that much, that’s a pretty solid right-wing-ism.
Could be “Horseshoe Theory”, I guess, but lately I feel like we need to cut through the bullshit and recognize that every single person telling us not to vote for Kamala is perfectly fine with another Trump term, and that’s enough for me to call someone a fascist.
Could also be they are low-info that relied on solely wingnut sources and then they turned 14. Would explain the “Democrat Party” thing. The right wing has been doing this intentionally for decades. For the “unity” they keep talking about, of course. They do this almost universally, from top to bottom.
Imagine if nearly every single Democrat - from the President on down, called the Republican Party something that is not their name, intentionally, only to irritate the right.
And these people dare to call the Obama administration and the Biden administration divisive! It’s just more of their DARVO.
Oh 100%
Tankies usually say dumb shit like “Blue MAGA” which is absolutely hilarious. Really makes it easy to tell when someone has no clue about what they’re talking about.
Conservative*
