• Furbag@lemmy.world
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    9 days ago

    I knew all these single issue fake leftists were full of shit when it was revealed that Trump has been sabotaging peace talks and they weren’t immediately outraged by that revelation.

    Nah, they all have a political objective, and it doesn’t involve peace in the middle east. Their objective is to use genocide as a political wedge to divide the left and get Trump elected.

    • Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world
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      9 days ago

      I knew all these single issue fake leftists were full of shit when it was revealed that Trump has been sabotaging peace talks and they weren’t immediately outraged by that revelation.

      Why would anyone even be surprised by that? We’re mad because Democrats see what’s happening between Trump and Netanyahu and are doing what Netanyahu wants anyway.

      • Pacattack57@lemmy.world
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        9 days ago

        There is a lot more going on in the Middle East than any American citizen can understand. Voting for ANY candidate will not fix it. Even if we voted in a candidate that vehemently opposed Israel, nothing would change. Our military and I intelligence network there is dependent on a strong Israel.

        Unfortunately there is nothing we can do about it except purge congress and get all anti Israel politicians. Good luck making that happen.

        • Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world
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          8 days ago

          There is a lot more going on in the Middle East than any American citizen can understand.

          “Oh, your feeble anti-genocide mind just can’t imagine the vastness of why we have to keep doing everything Netanyahu wants!”

          Democracy is on the line. Our singleminded devotion to the right-wing government of a genocidal apartheid state is less important than preserving democracy itself. But not to Democrats.

          • Krauerking@lemy.lol
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            8 days ago

            Look we just have to work with that national socialist party just long enough to get rid of the dirty communists and get the money rolling again and then we can get rid of them.
            Like what’s the worst that can happen while we give them some power?
            They burn the Reichstag down? Ha.

            Us liberal conservatives have nothing to fear. We are the obvious choice anyways. Who else could they turn to?

      • prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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        8 days ago

        Electoral politics is a fickle thing. If Harris makes a statement either way on Palestine, she will lose.

        I just can’t seem to understand why nobody seems to get this.

        Edit: I honestly can’t wait until November 6th when all of these bullshit, brand new accounts astroturfing for third parties and doing everything they can to get the fascist elected, mysteriously disappear.

        And if they don’t, well, I guess this website isn’t for me.

        • Krauerking@lemy.lol
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          8 days ago

          We can’t change course, we obviously have to hit that iceberg and then just hope for the best afterwards. What use would turning at all do. Honestly, I think hitting the iceberg isn’t even that bad of an idea. The other crazy person we would let behind the wheel would also drive us straight into the iceberg anyways but playing music to cover the screams of horror better.
          Everyone screaming about the iceberg is just over reacting anyways. The true iceberg is the one after this one and all the other ones hiding out at sea we will get to after we finish smashing into this one.

          Why the fuck is everyone so afraid of change or trying things different.

          “This is the way”, screw that, we aren’t caricatures.

            • Krauerking@lemy.lol
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              8 days ago

              Just like the arguments that we must simply accept that there is no options other than continuing exactly as is or exactly as is but more proudful.

              There is a lot of complex issues boiled down to nothing to do about it other than huge sweeping options or nothing at all and it’s exhausting.

        • Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world
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          8 days ago

          If Harris makes a statement either way on Palestine, she will lose.

          She has already made it clear that Biden’s policy regarding Gaza is her policy. She has taken sides on the issue already. You just like the side she took.

    • Queen HawlSera@lemm.ee
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      8 days ago

      It’s funny how people who “hate both parties” only ever wanna criticize the Left

      • Jentu@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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        8 days ago

        It’s funny how people only interested in the “logic” of harm reduction don’t realize why this is the case. Like, no shit people will get more upset over a police officer killing innocent people over the random maniac with a gun killing innocent people.

          • Jentu@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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            8 days ago

            This is about the topic of criticizing though. Are you honestly surprised the group who claim to be more moral than murderers are criticized more for murdering?

            • Queen HawlSera@lemm.ee
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              8 days ago

              No, but discussions of morality are for those privileged enough to be entirely out of harm’s way. For the rest of us, there’s harm reduction and threat assessment to consider.

              Will criticizing police brutality lead to a safer community? Yes, because the people in charge of them will respond to protests, especially as they grow in size and ferocity in response to the situation and how dire it becomes.

              Will criticizing the Democrats lead to a safer community? No, because the alternative political party ensures that to be a horrid decision.

              • Jentu@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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                8 days ago

                “Will criticizing the Democrats lead to a safer community? No, because the alternative political party ensures that to be a horrid decision.”

                As someone who would absolutely be targeted by another trump presidency, I’m not sure if this is the case. Sure, his policies are absolutely worse for me and people like me. But at least in rhetoric, democrats (the voters) would suddenly be against the things democrats (the party) are currently doing if trump were doing it instead, which mobilizes more people toward activism and helps protect those in need actively instead of passively if at all. Should the democrats (the party) slowly adopt republican policies (which seems to be the case), wouldn’t it be better for the electorate not to be asleep at the wheel for 4 years leaving my community to die? If democrats (the voters) don’t respond well to alarm bells for genocide, what makes you think they would respond well to alarm bells for transphobic bills that aren’t veto’d, civil rights being walked back, project 2025 being implemented under Harris, and no protections even attempted to combat it? Stochastic terrorism from trump can happen even if he’s not president and insurrection can happen even if he doesn’t win. The real safety in my community comes from the community itself, not the politicians representing billionaires who give sweeping laws, but if liberals are fine with throwing Palestinians to the wolves today, it’ll be the queer community tomorrow.

                The queer community has and will fight like we have in the past should we need to regardless of who becomes president, and with or without the support of the masses. Sure, a lot of us might be killed, but that’s the position the comfortable masses always put us in. The lack of criticism of the democrats right now among their base tells me a couple things: 1) the line about “sure democrats and republicans both have duds, but at least democrats hold their own accountable” is a lie and 2) shows me that throwing groups under the bus is okay so long as it maintains comfort and security- meaning we are headed for fascism whether it’s blue or red since it seems like the entirety of the electorate are willing to sacrifice others for their own benefit. Our nation was born out of genocide, so it’s no wonder how easy it is to vote for “lesser genocide” rather than protests, strikes, riots, and generally shutting down the country while helping our neighbors out materially. Either of the two main candidates winning is a testament to how hateful our country really is.

                Consent has been manufactured with a false choice given to you by oligarchs and many have been fooled into thinking this is democracy. If you aren’t willing to fight for your rights and the rights of your neighbors, they’re as good as gone already regardless of who you check on the ballot.

    • Sauerkraut@discuss.tchncs.de
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      8 days ago

      I knew all these single issue fake leftists were full of shit when it was revealed that Trump has been sabotaging peace talks and they weren’t immediately outraged by that revelation.

      Sorry, but if people aren’t free to critique their party funding genocide and aren’t free to protest genocide without " helping the enemy", then our system has already fallen to authoritarianism.

      Don’t get me wrong, I am voting for Harris. But our two party system is a fucking farce. It makes a mockery of every ideal that democracy is supposed to represent. Authority is supposed to be given from the consent of the people. But most Americans agree that our two party system is broken and yet our politicians have made it impossible for us to fix or replace our broken system because they benefit from it. A system forced on us by a minority for their benefit against the will of the majority is the complete opposite of a democracy.

    • inv3r510n@lemmy.world
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      8 days ago

      Calling a genocide a “single issue” is offensive as fuck. It’s not fake leftist. Liberals can continue to cry and blame everyone else but themselves when they lose.

      It’s really easy. Kamala harris could change her view on israel tomorrow, but she won’t. After all, AIPAC owns both parties.

      If the dems gave a flying fuck about “preventing fascism” they would do whatever it takes. They won’t.

      • Furbag@lemmy.world
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        8 days ago

        Calling a genocide a “single issue” is offensive as fuck.

        It’s literally objective reality. It is one single issue among many. If you’re unwilling to consider other issues when voting just because one of them is genocide, that makes it a single issue and it makes you a single issue voter.

        I don’t give a fuck if that offends you. Get lost.

    • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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      9 days ago

      Trump has been sabotaging peace talks

      This is pure horseshit. Netanyahu has been stringing Biden along for half his career. Biden has willingly turned a blind eye to Israeli war crimes going back 30 years.

      Trying to deflect decades of failed US middle east policy - policy that Biden helped construct first as Senator, then as VP, and finally as President - and blame it on a single phone call Trump made to egg Netanyahu on is dishonest to the point of denialism.

      Their objective is to use genocide as a political wedge

      We’re doing “Human Shields” discourse again. It’s the Palestinian American’s fault for not endorsing the genocide of their immediate friends and family.

      Scratch a fucking liberal…

      • Ragdoll X@lemmy.world
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        9 days ago

        Trump has been sabotaging peace talks

        This is pure horseshit.


        It’s the Palestinian American’s fault for not endorsing the genocide of their immediate friends and family.

        Voting isn’t a love letter, it’s a chess move. Biden, Harris and other establishment liberals absolutely deserve to be relentlessly mocked and criticized (and frankly indicted) for cheerleading Israel’s genocide, but aiding in the political victory of someone twice as genocidal as them, and who also intends to end democracy and target his political opponents would be a bad move.

        • Sauerkraut@discuss.tchncs.de
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          8 days ago

          Voting isn’t a love letter, it’s a chess move

          The difference is you can win a game of chess. There is no winning with our two party oligarchy. Which candidate will give us universal healthcare? Which candidate will give us economic democracy by converting capitalist companies into worker co-ops or nationalizing critical industries? Which candidate will give us free college and the freedom to unionize without fearing for our careers? Neither of them? Cool. So either we vote for liberal corporate oligarchy or the fascist oligarchs will make us pay dearly for it. Either way we lose, but one is worse than the other. Our “democracy” is like holding a gun to someone’s head and telling them they are voting to get shot if they don’t vote to drop their pants and bend over. I’ll do it, but only because the alternative is worse.

        • Cataphract@lemmy.ml
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          9 days ago

          Hey, just one human to another. That “Voting isn’t a love letter, it’s a chess move” just does absolufuckinglutely nothing and comes across as insulting/pompous on your part. You’re insulting someone’s vote as a “love letter” (great way to get someone to read and contemplate when you’re taking the meaning of the vote out of context). And your “chess move” isn’t as intelligent as you think, you’re in check and you only have one move.

          Just one more fucking week to go and I can’t wait. It’s gonna be so great to see next week how Lemmy is just flooded with 3rd party initiatives, voting changes organization, donations to local and national 3rd party candidates, a heavy focus on anti-gerrymandering and securing voting rights. We’re not gonna continue to discuss how there’s no options and we can’t support other candidacies for at least 3 years…right? Everyone saying now is not the right time is gonna be super active next week with pushing to support the future parties… right?!

          • Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world
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            9 days ago

            Hey, just one human to another. That “Voting isn’t a love letter, it’s a chess move” just does absolufuckinglutely nothing and comes across as insulting/pompous on your part.

            Pretty sure that’s the intent.

        • Saleh@feddit.org
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          9 days ago

          Chess moves is a great analogy. There is many situations in chess where you might win a figure but move yourself in a loosing position. The best chess players are those that can think the furthest ahead.

          The political culture is embracing you to never think past the next election. Dont question the set up you are given. Dont think outside the box. Dont think how not punishing the supposed moral site of politics for genocide might make genocide accepted morals in the long run.

          And then if brown people can be genocided in the Middle East, why not in Central America before they flee to the US? And once we are accustomed to that, what about the brown people already living in the US? Sure they speak Spanish instead of Arabic, but there is so awful many of them these days…

          That is the longterm outset we see. As climate change will push for migration and refugee seeking beyond anythinf we can fathom these days and as the supposed moral sides of politics in white supremacist countries are embracing “solutions” that used to be of the fringes of the far right, we are descending into white supreme fascism.

          • pumpkinseedoil@mander.xyz
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            9 days ago

            So you think Trump would be better than Harris? Because that’s the only thing you get to vote on: Trump or Harris. A vote for neither is a vote for whoever has more votes - and we know that statistically republicans are less likely to vote third party (or not vote), so it most likely is a vote for Trump.

            • jatone@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              9 days ago

              So you think Trump would be better than Harris?

              no, we (speaking for myself and @selah here) don’t support genocidal candidates. stop making up stories in your head and read what people are telling you.

              Because that’s the only thing you get to vote on: Trump or Harris.

              incorrect there were 5 candidates on my ballot. this is a false choice that exists purely in your head. There are many paths to neutralizing trump and that don’t normalize genocide.

              A vote for neither is a vote for whoever has more votes

              incorrect, pure fiction. i suggest you spruce up on your basic addition and ratio math skills. What you mean to say is no vote or a vote for a 3rd party doesn’t help harris, you’re preferred candidate. yes. thereby putting her candidacy at risk. maybe she should adopt some policies to fix this.

              The reason harris is swinging to the right is because the right wing doesn’t care about worker rights and many are also very disgusted with trump. They require no concessions by capital to garner votes; just a general disgust with trump. If trump wasnt running this wouldn’t be possible.

              Hilariously I have no problem with this as a left wing voter. Why? because if the democrats can reliably peel off the few remaining moderate republicans we can finally split this big tent party and get a party that is dedicated to working class rights.

              • kinsnik@lemmy.world
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                9 days ago

                What you mean to say is no vote or a vote for a 3rd party doesn’t help harris, you’re preferred candidate. yes. thereby putting her candidacy at risk.

                so you say that a no vote or 3rd party vote is a vote for trump, then. because those are the only 2 options. either trump or harris will be the next president of the united states. so, hurting harris means helping trump. you do get that, right?

                • jatone@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                  7 days ago

                  No you say that. My ballot had 5 options. Yours may have a different number depending on the state.

                  If you dont like this situation thats not my problem. Its yours. Go demand rcv in your state. Go demand democrats not support a genocide. I wish harris had a single policy that’d make her worth voting for. Sadly her entire platform is already shit my state has with a genocidal cherry on top.

                  Sucks to suck I guess. Better luck next election, i hope this one works out for you. Until then i will continue to deny harris my vote in my 20+ dem state and let my critters know they’re on thin ice if israel continues its behavior with our support.

                  As ive been telling everyone its perfectly okay to not vote for harris if its not in your interests. Harris’ struggles are her own doing. IF you live in a blue state think hard on your vote there are benfits to voting third party. If you live in a purple or red state Harris’ campaign may be your best option in which case no hard feelings vote for her! Totally understandable.

                • Sauerkraut@discuss.tchncs.de
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                  8 days ago

                  I just want to point out that the idea that “questioning your party helps the enemy” is an authoritarian mentality. If we aren’t free to demand that the left-of-fascism party stop supporting (funding) genocide, then perhaps the US has already fallen to authoritarianism.

                  • kinsnik@lemmy.world
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                    8 days ago

                    you are more than welcomed to pressure kamala on supporting the genocide. in fact, if one week from now she wins, i would hope that the support to stop the genocide continues. i know that AOC and bernie will; and I know that the russian propaganda machine that is just trying to demotivate harris’ voter will not, because their goal is not to protect the people of Palestine, but to impose an authoritarian president in the US. i assume that some of the people here will continue because they actually care; and some will stop because the propaganda machine will point towards something else

                  • pumpkinseedoil@mander.xyz
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                    8 days ago

                    But the timeline is:

                    1. Prevent worse

                    2. After that protest and show the democrats how much you disagree with their stance on that

          • Furbag@lemmy.world
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            9 days ago

            The political culture is embracing you to never think past the next election.

            I am absolutely thinking past the next election. I want to make sure, at any cost, that the person who has vowed to become a dictator on day one, deport millions of legal immigrants, terminate the constitution, and use the military against his political opponents does not win.

            In other words, I am voting in this election to ensure that there is a next election.

            Since the bad faith leftists seem adamant that genocide is genocide and that there are no shades of grey involved, then my support for either candidate hardly matters in that regard, so I’m not going to let it stand in the way of casting my vote to support other issues that I care about. Women’s right to bodily autonomy and the rule of law are two big ones in my book.

            I’m sorry that innocent people are dying in Palestine in a senseless conflict, truly I am. I hope the people of Israel do their own part to hold their government responsible for these atrocities, because ultimately that’s what needs to happen. Israel could continue the war indefinitely even without U.S. support. We are not the lynchpin holding the Israel-Hamas war afloat, we’re just one cog in the machine.

      • Fedizen@lemmy.world
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        9 days ago

        lots of grace for trump and republicans on this issue from you, but little for democrats. Its known Netanyahu wants trump to win and has been trying to make the US as ugly as possible on this issue, the question is, why is Netanyahu playing you like a fiddle?

        • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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          9 days ago

          lots of grace for trump and republicans on this issue

          If that’s how you’ve chosen to read it, there’s no reaching you.

          • Fedizen@lemmy.world
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            9 days ago

            Its how you wrote it. If there’s an accusation that trump and netanyahu are conspiring to make things worse you give trump and netanyahu grace here. If joe biden is attempting to make things worse you believe that accusation without proof.

            We live in a world where multiple presidents have been elected while torching foreign negotiations during their campaign. Reagan notably prolonged the Iran hostage crisis AND began the Iran Contra scandal before he was ever president.

            If you think that we should suppose an even worse person like trump is not negotioating on some even darker plan, you simply are simply offering him more grace than fucking reagan deserved. Reagan’s “Peace deal” killed a lot of fucking people.