When I called someone out for being “delusional” and “a problem”, I was perma-banned from the r/atheism. Have I missed something? Are atheists at literal war with theists? Is it the common belief that theists are willing members of “murderous organizations”? What propaganda is being passed around atheist circles that I’ve been missing out on?
More directly, I guess, is today’s Atheism strictly about anti-Christianity? Cause that’s not where I’m coming from nor interested in going.
For added context of the conversation I was attempting to have - “everybody or nobody”; if a pride flag alone fails to represent everyone (which it inherently does), wouldn’t the proposed argument prevent hanging the flag? I thought it was a reasonable reply to the idea and was shocked by “murderous organizations” coming into play.
(I mean, people have been hanging American flags and singing the National Anthem too.)
Complete list of “accepted atheist beliefs”:
- There aren’t any gods.
Well, I for one, don’t accept any beliefs. I reject the entire concept of belief. What people might mistake for my beliefs, are actually informed assumptions. Admittedly, informed to varying degrees, but still. I’ll happily adjust them when my information changes ;-)
Without more context it looks like you were trying to argue against displaying pride flags.
How about you link the full exchange because I am leaning toward you being a bigot given the only context you have provided.
Also yes, if you responded in the way you did in just about any context I would not be surprised for you to be banned.
The original post was deleted so that’s the extent of it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/17741eh/teacher_forced_to_remove_cross_bible_verse_from/k4sbc9o/?context=3It’s a mathematical argument. If you can’t include everything, exclude everything. So, I have asked the question, would that not exclude pride flags?
Oh! Yeah - pride flags were mentioned in the deleted post. I didn’t just randomly bring that into the conversation! I guess that would be helpful for added context.
What was the comment that got removed. Looks like you’re just a bigot.
The purpose of a pride flag is to show support for inclusion of people who have been historically excluded, marginalized, and attacked for merely existing as they are, and still are to this day, often officially and actively by governments and religious groups. It’s not a religious symbol of superiority or exclusion. Do you really not see the difference?
I do understand why you seem to think “pro-humanity and tolerance” equates to “anti-Christianity,” but that is unrelated to atheism, which just means, “I don’t believe gods exist.”
Well, it is a symbol of exclusion. Practically all flags are symbols or representing a portion of a population, which by default excludes other portions (American flag excludes Canada, Japan, etc). Unless I’m misunderstanding the flag. Does the pride flag represent straight people too?
Because I’m thinking of someone less emotionally stable than me, a straight white kid who doesn’t believe in god, who might have shitty parents and maybe doesn’t do well in school sitting in class surrounded by all these flags that represent gay people and buddhists and christians and Boy Scouts and the football team, etc. These are the kids who might turn out to be problematic. This is why the far-right extremists are out of control. They’re afraid of being forgotten and ignored just as they outcast minorities for generations.
So I support the idea of all or nothing for the sake of those who find themselves in the minority. Everyone (who isn’t opposed to equality) should feel equally represented.
So you’re asking to remove all symbols and flags everywhere?
I’ll take a reductio ad absurdum for this one:
Let’s remove all symbols and flags that represent groups, like crosses, pride flags, football team flags everything that isn’t on a national scale.
So all you would have in the end is your national flag. Great! Problem solved. Oh, no, wait. What about people that don’t have the nationality but are in the country? They look around and see national flags everywhere and feel terribly excluded. Okay, let’s get rid of national flags, too. Then we’ll just have the United Nations flag. Although, no, some countries aren’t part of or recognized by the UN. That won’t work.
Okay, no flags then, fine.
But wait, what about signs? If you have a sign that uses the western alphabet, which consists of symbols, you exclude everyone that doesn’t feel represented by these symbols. Imagine being a Japanese person in the US. Only western letters, so excluding.
Okay, let’s get rid of writing then.
I’ll just watch TV. It makes it difficult that the remote is mostly blank but I don’t want to be excluding. Hold on. There is a logo on my TV!
This is so excluding, I don’t feel like part of that company, the TV is excluding me.
Let’s get rid of brand logos too, then!
Your point is absurd. Also, you can’t possibly think a pride flag is as bad as, say, a cross. The flag is a symbol of acceptance, the cross a polar opposite.
Why should symbols represent everyone? The whole point of a symbol is to distinguish specific groups. If you support banning all symbols that support specific groups then it appears your advocating for total uniformity of humanity. If a symbol represents a specific group in a specific context that is dangerous or exploitative then ban it, I guess. For example the Swastika in a plain Buddhist context represents peace and that’s fine. A swastika in much of the world is most likely in indicator of Nazism, and thus should be banned. There’s a clear difference here. I don’t know why you’re jumping to binaries, the world isn’t binary. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
there is no such thing as god.
its a social construct.
atheism 101.
Your first problem is being on Reddit.
Your second problem is that you made a personal attack, which is against reddiquette.
Has nothing to do with the discussion your are having.
But to answer you rather question directly, it is complex question and many atheists think differently on this topic. It is not like we have an atheist Bible.
100%.
As an atheist who never went to any meetings, never got a pamphlet, never joined an organization. Our opinions are as diverse as all humans. Just because we don’t believe in something doesn’t mean we agree anything else.
I suspect the whole thing is not about the points your raised, but about how you said it, and treated others in the group during the dialog.
Removed by mod
The argument, which was not posed by me, was that either all groups be represented or none be represented. My “devil’s argument” was then would that mean the exclusion of the pride flag (because this had something to do with a comment that’s since been deleted).
That’s the discussion.
Atheism can seem like it’s about anti-Christianity, because a lot of American atheists have a Christian background. They’re justifiably pissed about the lies they were taught, and the rampant hypocrisy of Christianity. They’re often very vocal, especially online.
Over time, people usually get less angry about their personal experiences, and find it easier to step back and take a broader view. Too much of any religion is a problem.
I don’t share this militant ideology. I know a lot of religious-ish people who are beautiful humans. But that makes sense for people to revolt against a group and a philosophy that took advantage of them and caused them so much pain.
I guess I’ve had this incorrect assumption that atheists were inherently more logical and less prone to misinformation and propaganda. I thought we were the smarty-pants club so it’s disappointing and embarrassing to see some of these comments.
Yeah. Being sensible enough not to let superstition rule your life is a plus, but a lot of atheists are nothing but obnoxious people who like to be contrarians and think they’re smarter than others. That’s not a very helpful attitude, and I think that taking atheism to such an extreme that you automatically look down on theists is, well, kind of similar to being religiously intolerant. Isn’t that something we should avoid?
I also know a few smart, wonderful folks who happen to let religion play a role in their lives, and I think that’s fine. They actually use religion for its stated purpose, which is (generally speaking) to improve themselves and the world around them. They do it in a tolerant, non-evangelical way, too, that respects the beliefs of others. Yeah, they happen to believe some things I think are unnecessary, but so what? Who am I to judge, when they live such positive lives?
I also know many more people who use religion as an excuse to be willfully ignorant, hypocritical, and closed-minded. That’s the kind of religious “belief” I look down on.
Sheesh this again, ISNT HATING PEOPLE WHO ARE HATEFUL, mpphhhsippysipineed HATEFUL? n o.
You’re pretty belligerent, that’s probably why you got banned. You even want to continue the argument from Reddit here on Lemmy. There’s better ways of conveying your ideas than attacking people you’re speaking with. It’s never going to end well, you’re not going to make friends that way
You seem to have some preconceptions about atheism, so I’ll give you the most complete answer I can about what atheism means to me.
Atheism does not mean I’m a scientist. I am not an expert on biology, chemistry, cosmology, geology, physics or anything else that people care to invoke as proof that their god is real. I am a science enthusiast, meaning that scientific discoveries fascinate me and I try to keep abreast of current trends and discoveries made by the scientific community but that doesn’t make me a scientist. I am at best a layman on scientific matters and am necessarily limited in my understanding. I don’t have the answers to every question in the universe, but I do understand one thing about human knowledge: the fewer assumptions we hold as default the less likely we are to mislead ourselves about what we know. Consequently, if you demand to know what started the universe or how life arose from nonliving matter the only answer I can give is “I don’t know.” “God did it” is not the automatic default just because that’s the traditional answer from religion, it still must be validated as true before it can be accepted. It will be held to the same standards of evidence as any other claim, and if it can’t meet that standard I will not accept excuses for why that standard should not apply.
Atheism does not mean I’m a philosopher. In truth I’m less impressed by philosophy than I probably should be, but I’ve seen some really bad rationalizations trying to justify belief without looking like they’re justifying belief. The near-universal admiration of Thomas Aquinas’ Five Ways springs immediately to mind. The thing is that religion isn’t philosophy, and belief in gods isn’t founded in rational thought. It’s not taught through rational discourse but an emotional one. People don’t wait for their children to learn critical thinking skills before they drill religious beliefs into their heads, and for a very good reason. They’re teaching their children to accept religious teachings as a default assumption before they can examine the validity of those assumptions, and most children live their lives without ever considering why they should question them. You can’t tell me this isn’t deliberate. So I don’t need to be a philosopher to be an atheist and I don’t pretend to be one.
Atheism doesn’t mean I’m automatically a better person. Atheism isn’t a magic spell that makes me smarter, stronger, faster, more moral or ethical than someone who believes in a god. Atheism challenges me to reconsider questions that I used to consider sufficiently answered by religion such as science, morality and ethics but that doesn’t guarantee I’m going to do a good job with it. I am still the same person I was when I was standing behind the podium leading the church congregation in singing religious hymns, I just no longer believe what religions claim about reality and I don’t participate in church any longer. Nor have I become a thieving, raping, murdering monster because I no longer fear divine retribution because my morality is not and never was based on fear. My morality has always been based on doing what I understand to be right, not about avoiding punishment.
Atheism doesn’t mean I know there are no gods. I suspect there aren’t, because religious claims about gods and reality don’t stand up to scrutiny. The more excuses you have to make for why reality doesn’t work the way you insist it should, the less inclined I am to believe you know what you’re talking about. Arguing for a prime mover or appealing to consequences doesn’t convince me either. I’m intellectually honest enough to say that I don’t have concrete knowledge that there are no gods the way I know there’s no money in my wallet, but not being able to prove there are no gods isn’t enough for me to believe that there are. Wanting to believe there are gods is no more useful than wanting there to be money in my wallet. It’s still a claim that requires validation, not a default assumption.
Atheism doesn’t mean I worship the devil. I shouldn’t even have to say this, but it’s still a popular thing to say. If I don’t believe in your god, why would I take your devil seriously?
Atheists can be liberal or conservative, intelligent or ignorant, friendly or hostile, moral or immoral. We can be good people or bad people just like everyone else. When you learn that someone is an atheist, the only thing you can safely assume from this is that they don’t believe in any gods. If you want to know why they don’t believe, what kind of person they are and what they know (or think they know) you’ll have to dig a little deeper and ask them. Nothing else is implied from atheism but that one thing.
“I don’t know.” “God did it” is not the automatic default
Atheism doesn’t mean I know there are no gods.Sir, you are agnostic, not atheist.
Atheism is the firm denial god(s). Agnostic is “I suspect there aren’t”.Funny you should say that. I put up a post about that just the other day.
https://lemmy.one/post/4963134
I do not recognize your authority to tell me who I am or what I believe. You don’t get to dictate what words mean.
Agnosticism is a stance about epistemology, the nature of knowledge - what it’s possible to know or not know. Atheism is a stance about the nature of metaphysics and the supernatural - whether you think there are gods.
You can have a stance on both. There are Gnostic Theists (there is definitely a god), Gnostic Atheists (there is definitely no god), Agnostic Theists (I believe in a god, but I accept it as belief alone), and Agnostic Atheists (I don’t believe in any gods and I don’t think anyone will ever prove otherwise).
Everyone who doesn’t believe in any gods, grand creators, “spiritual energy that binds us all together,” or what have you is an atheist. Don’t gatekeep just because someone is less militant than you, especially on a post you’re making out of frustration toward those more militant than you.
Ehm, no. Atheism is absence of faith into god(s), not faith into absence of god(s).
What you defining is “strong atheism”. But there is “weak atheism” that does not claim that god does not exist.
I am for example a weak atheist and I think that claim “there are no god(s)” is as meaningless and unscientific as “there are/is god(s)”, because the word god is simply undefined.
There is no Christian God, sure. This statement I am ready to make. But so does a person of nearly any other non-Christian religion.
Always viewed it as “I have no data either way, it’s not a falsifiable hypothesis, so I’m just going to operate on the assumption it doesn’t exist but I’m not making any strong statements about it.”
The pride flag was brought up, which is not religious, thereby opening up the discussion for non-religious symbols.
So I’m going to assume that the person who replied with the “murderous organizations” thing was probably refering to something like a nazi swastika rather than a cross or a star of David, and was wondering if you think a nazi swastika flag is equivalent to a pride flag.
Make sense?
Edit: Added “nazi” to “swastika” to get ahead of any bUt aCkShUlLy tHe sWasTiKa iS aN aSiAn rElIgIouS sYmbOl redditism lol
Don’t mind getting banned on r/atheism. The staunchest atheists get banned over there for not adhering to the hive mind. It’s a cesspool.
LOL. That was exactly what I said when they offered to submit an appeal. I said I wasn’t interested in being associated with the hive-mind zealots.
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