“We as American Jews believe that ‘never again’ means never again for anyone, and that includes Palestinians,” said JVP, referring to the refrain repeated by the Jewish American community regarding the need to prevent genocide. “‘Never again’ is this very moment.”
Something so common sense will surely fall on deaf ears.
Didn’t you know? Those American Jews are being antisemitic for daring to oppose genocide.
This is not genocide. The Israeli army has a massive amount of weapons with which it could commit genocide if it truly wanted to. The situation is horrible and the loss of civilians lives is also horrible but this is not genocide. Misusing that term risks it losing all meaning.
Go back and read the UN Convention on Genocide, as this most certainly is that. Unquestionably.
If it’s genocide why is the population of Palestinians GROWING?
Where in the definition of genocide does the attempt have to be successful before you call it genocide or try stop it?
Israel has nuclear weapons and f16s. If they tried to commit genocide they would succeed. If Palestinians had those weapons, they would literally commit genocide immediately as it is stated in Hamas’ founding charter.
Israel is dependent on foreign aid, do you think their allies wouldn’t notice if they bombed and killed millions of people at once? There would be a response from other countries in the area as well. Even the Nazis took a lot of effort to hide the holocaust during the execution of it. Where in Hamas’ founding charter does it state “we will commit genocide if we have the power.”? And even if it did, Hamas is not the Palestinian people, they haven’t had an election since 2006 and there are several other militant groups within Palestine.
Did you not read the UN Convention on Genocide? You know, the things Jewish people said they’d never forget?
Here’s a PDF it’s only like 4 pages: https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-crimes/Doc.1_Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.pdf
Whether or not it’s true if the population is increasing in spite of all of these things isn’t relevant. What’s relevant is that Israel is attempting several of them (only need 1 for it to be genocide), and they have been for several decades.
What would you have Israel do? Not defend itself? Because by doing so according to your logic Israel is committing genocide then.
If Hamas didn’t keep attacking Israel and instead focused on improving the lives for residents in Gaza then Israel would not attack them.
Also based on that link you cited and your logic palestinians are committing genocide against the Israelis
Defend itself against what? It, the UK, and the US started it and refused to relent. Yeah I expect Israel to give the illegal settlements back entirely. They intentionally encouraged too many people to move in in order to justify illegal expansion. So yeah send them back, pay the immigrants for Israel’s fraud and con, and give the Palestinian’s their land back.
You steal someone’s car, and you make it right by giving it back and covering any damages. Just because Israel stole a really big “car” doesn’t change how right and wrong works. You give it back and apologize whether you’re a 3 year old or Netanyahu.
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Nice pivot. Didn’t work, but good try.
Also based on that link you cited and your logic palestinians are committing genocide against the Israelis
What a fucking joke. I guess just pretend you don’t know how power dynamics work.
They are doing that. They are bombing an area after making it impossible for people to evacuate by giving an impossible deadline. They are bombing the areas people are told to take on the way to evacuate. The people they are bombing have no defenses or way to escape. Israel’s own government officials have referred to Palestinians as animals and said there are no innocents among them. That’s what genocide looks like before having the benefit of hindsight.
This is not genocide. The German army has a massive amount of weapons with which it could commit genocide if it truly wanted to. The situation is horrible and the loss of civilians lives is also horrible but this is not genocide. Misusing that term risks it losing all meaning.
If it’s genocide why is the population of Palestinians GROWING?
It might be. Real soon.
Still, it doesn’t go without saying. They might ignore it, but they can’t pretend nobody said anything.
Isn’t pretending nobody said anything the basis for modern politics at this point?
I asked once why the law (Jewish religious law) said don’t kill, steal etc then said of Amallites not to leave one alive, man, woman or child. The answer? “Jewish law doesn’t apply to gentiles.”
Cease fire wont stop the humanitarian crisis that sparked this. They need water and power and humanitarian aid that israel has blocked.
Israel has the world’s sympathy and support but if they retaliate brutally and massively that sympathy and support will shift to the Palestinians.
I think it already has.
I think it’s very confused and polarized. Neither side is even remotely in the right at this point, and those who suffer have almost no agency. The only third rail here is the Israeli people. They can make the madness stop.
The civilians on both sides aren’t in the right? I misunderstand you, and am being genuine here. Morality/ethics of a conflict can’t just be measured and analyzed by the actions and consequences of the combatants. The people caught in the middle, whether Palestinian or Jewish are the real losers in this. War has no real victor…
They’re saying the powers at play, the big boys, on both sides are fucked. The people in the middle, the civilians on either side, have no real say in what’s going on, they just get slaughtered.
Every single time this type of shit plays out the same way. Outrage at whichever Palestinian group did whatever. Outrage at Israel’s response. Then people taking what they think are reasonable sides in a religious war, then finally things calm back down to the fucked up status quo. I see no reason this will be any different.
I think there are four factors at play here. They’re mixed together in an extremely messy fashion and overlap quite a bit, but they are:
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The people on both sides fear for their safety. The Palestinians fear the Israeli government and military taking action against them. The Israeli people fear rocket attacks and raids like the one that just happened. When a populace lives in fear, it leads to -
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Extremist groups are in charge. You have Hamas on one side whose stated goal is to kill all Jews. (Not just in Israel, but across the world.) You have the right wing Israeli government on the other side who push for horrible actions against the Palestinians in the name of “safety.”
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Foreign interference. Iran on one side is arming/helping Hamas. On the other side, evangelical Christians help the settlers and push the Israeli government because they think Jesus will come back if Israel suffers a big enough attack. (Peace would prevent that attack and stop Jesus from returning.)
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A long and bloody history. Both sides remember when they were killed by the other side. Both sides refuse to leave the past in the past and intend on making the other side pay. The problem here is that the cycle of violence never breaks. If you always have to attack because “they did X to us” then they will feel like they always need to attack because you did Y to them. It goes around and around and never changes no matter how much everyone suffers.
How do you untangle this mess? If I knew that, I’d have the Nobel Peace Prize. I wish I did know. I’d set the peace prize aside in a second, tell the world what to do, and stop it all. Unfortunately, I’m no diplomat. (Some of the best diplomats have failed in this arena.) I can see what’s going on, but I have no clue how to stop it.
The best I can think of is that perhaps UN security forces need to move in. Not to attack one side or another, but to keep both sides away from each other. Sort of like the national version of putting two kids who were fighting in time out until things cool down. But again, I’m no diplomat so for all I know that would make things worse.
How do you untangle this mess? If I knew that, I’d have the Nobel Peace Prize.
I wouldn’t wish that on you. Former Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin won the Nobel in 1994, and was assassinated for it the following year.
You act as though both sides are equivalent.
They are not. Israel is an apartheid state. Palestinians are legally deprived of human rights and restricted to ghettos. Hamas is merely an extremist group that offers Palestinians something, even if its something they cannot deliver on and have no legitimate means of achieving. Palestinians have been massacred by Israel since its inception. Israelis have occasionally died in comparatively small numbers from Hamas attacks. Hamas is not Palestine though. And hamas has no legal power within the Israeli state. The Israeli state is entirely responsible for the current state of affairs and for the ongoing violence.
Palestinians have no state. They have no home. They are kept in ghettos. They are currently facing one of the largest humanitarian crises of the 21st century. The Israeli state could stop it all tomorrow. They could stop it all right now. Unconditionally grant equal citizenship to all Palestinians, return them their homes, give them 50% representation in the Israeli government, and formally condemn the racism and genocidal rhetoric of the Netanyahu administration and the many war crimes committed both by him and the IDF and the Israeli police force.
Its entirely up to Israel. Palestinians can do none of these things. Their only available recourse is extremism.
I agree with one caveat: the Palestinians can help themselves the same way India, South Africa, and other colonial peoples have. Non-violent resistance gets really good results in democracies. It’s not easy, but it’s less dangerous than attacking a modern military.
The hardest step is getting rid of Hamas, which is more like a mafia than a government. They’re more interested in keeping their power and position with help from Iran. In South Africa, Nelson Mandela was a violent terrorist before he turned to 100% non-violence.
Here’s an interesting article that no one will read:
I agree with one caveat: the Palestinians can help themselves the same way India, South Africa, and other colonial peoples have. Non-violent resistance gets really good results in democracies.
They tried. They tried a lot (well the first intifada also had a violent element but yk). The result was the Oslo accords, which were almost there until the then-PM was assassinated and Netenyahu who succeeded him just called the whole thing off. Since you mentioned India, the situation in Palestine is more like the troubles in Northern Ireland. You need people who actually care about human rights (many Israelis do, but enough don’t that Netenyahu was/has been PM for a total of 16+ years).
The hardest step is getting rid of Hamas, which is more like a mafia than a government.
Hamas aren’t actually 100% opposed to peace. They’ve already made three good faith efforts (2008 ceasefire, 2012 ceasefire, 2012-2013 united government), but in all three Israel actively rejected peace.
Edit: I know it’s weird that a terrorist organization is being the (slightly) reasonable side here, but yeah the fact that the conflict went on for so long is on Israel’s far-right party and Netenyahu specifically for rejecting peace time and time again. As soon as peace comes Hamas will either mellow out into an Islamist government or die off.
The result was the Oslo accords, which were almost there until the then-PM was assassinated and Netenyahu who succeeded him just called the whole thing off.
The reason why israeli people became more conservative during that time was due to Hamas executing several terrorist strikes during the Oslo Accords. Not surprisingly, the extremists on all sides hate peace – prime minister Rabin was murdered by a Jewish extremist.
I can only think to part of a response Orwell had for pacifists:
I am not interested in pacifism as a ‘moral phenomenon’. If Mr Savage and others imagine that one can somehow ‘overcome’ the German army by lying on one’s back, let them go on imagining it, but let them also wonder occasionally whether this is not an illusion due to security, too much money and a simple ignorance of the way in which things actually happen. As an ex-Indian civil servant, it always makes me shout with laughter to hear, for instance, Gandhi named as an example of the success of non-violence. As long as twenty years ago it was cynically admitted in Anglo-Indian circles that Gandhi was very useful to the British government. So he will be to the Japanese if they get there. Despotic governments can stand ‘moral force’ till the cows come home; what they fear is physical force.
Yeah, that’s correct:
Despotic governments can stand ‘moral force’ till the cows come home; what they fear is physical force.
That’s why I said democracies are vulnerable to non-violent resistance.
Democracies, like Israel, are the opposite of authoritarian governments. Developed democracies can withstand all the force you send at them because they rule with the consent of the governed and have much larger resources at their disposal.
They are more vulnerable to soft power. Hamas already has broadcast abilities. They should literally get rid of most weapons, and start broadcasting 24/7 about the hardships of living in the West Bank and Gaza. They have an unlimited amount of ammo because Israel genuinely makes people’s lives terrible.
THEY’VE TRIED.
Doesn’t help when most of the “offers” they get are basically, “you give up at least half of your land (including most of the Mediterranean Coast) and in return, we’ll stop genociding you.”
And those are the “good” offers.
You are so delusional about this situation that you think somehow a one state solution could work at this point. A two state solution is the only answer but unfortunately the leadership on both sides right now would never let that happen and the leadership on one side in particular (Hamas) is set on full extermination of the other party.
Hamas is an extremist group, they are only considered a reasonable thing to support because Palestinians do not have human rights and are confined to ghettos. One party in this situation is actively genociding the other, and quite understandably Palestinians are more inclined to listen to extremists than the Israeli state genociding them. Israel has actively sabotaged every single attempt at negotiations since the mid 90s. Netanyahu can be thanked for that. Him and the racists who support him.
Hamas is nothing if Palestinians had rights. Palestinians are just people, they are not an army they are not a militia. They deserve human rights. Israel could do that today. They deserve their homes back. Israel could do that today. Hamas has nothing to do with it. There’s never an excuse to deprive a race of people their rights and freedoms. Genocide is never acceptable. Apartheid is never acceptable.
Who elected Hamas? It’s interesting you say Palestinians have no other choice. Who governs the Palestinians in the West Bank?
Hamas cannot change the apartheid state. They have tried repeatedly since the mid 90s and every time America and Israel have sabotaged negotiations and refused to give Palestinians equal rights.
Hamas was elected once and there have been no elections since. They also have no actual political power in Israel so it doesn’t really make a difference who is elected. Netanyahu wants to commit genocide, he has no interest in changing anything.
The delusional thing is Britain thinking they could displace 750,000 to create a country out of nowhere and expect the indigenous to silently die off.
They’d done it so many times before without repercussions… Lol
They colonize but everyone fights back. That’s precisely my point. It’s normal and natural to fight back against that. It’s delusional to think it’s not.
Not to simplify your points and overall message because I really appreciate your words and thoughts, but game theory would do a lot to explain point 4 pretty tidily. The fucked up thing about that, though is that the hate and division is so entrenched that the fact that these people have to deal with one another all the time, has no effect in how they treat each other.
Then again, this gets into some anthropological territory of how culture begats culture, and a culture of violence can never be anything else (me adlibbing here on theoretical anthro), but I digress… The people that perpetrate the attacks are so far removed from the rank and file and every day experiences, and have so much to gain from continuing it, that why on Earth would they stop? To rational and reasonable people, it seems absurd, but so does how the Fossil Fuel industry persists in plunging us into extinction, so it all bears out, if you ask me.
How do you untangle this mess? If I knew that, I’d have the Nobel Peace Prize. I wish I did know.
Nah it’s actually pretty easy. Just needs someone who isn’t Netnyahu.
That’s definitely a start. Unfortunately, just swapping Netenyahu out with someone less extreme wouldn’t get Hamas to stop their attacks. It wouldn’t cause the people on both sides to feel safe enough to trust in a peace process and to forgive past actions.
There are a lot of factors in play and the solution to this, if there is one, is going to be very complicated and difficult to achieve. It will be worth it, but it won’t be easy.
That’s definitely a start. Unfortunately, just swapping Netenyahu out with someone less extreme wouldn’t get Hamas to stop their attacks.
I mean Hamas already agreed to stop their attacks in ceasefires before (see: 2008 and 2012 ceasefires). It was then Netenyahu who didn’t lift the blockade, therefore not holding Israel’s end of the agreements. It was also Netenyahu who stopped the peace process in 1995 because he’s Netenyahu.
This is what I meant by just needs someone who isn’t Netenyahu. Hamas has proven that they’re willing to engage in dialogue, despite what’s written in their charter. It’s Netenyahu who doesn’t want that, so he’s basically acting as a barrier between both sides and peace.
You are defending a group who as part of their founding charter calls for the extermination of all Jews on earth not just in Israel. You are at best wildly ignorant on this subject if not dishonest.
I made easily provable statements and can provide sources on them. If you have proof that anything I said is wrong, you’re welcome to provide it.
You get someone who stops the illegal settlement expansion and gives the land back.
You would also need someone on the Palestinian side that the Israelis would trust to keep their word and not attack. That trust just isn’t there and will be difficult to rebuild.
I’m not completely disagreeing with you. The illegal settlements need to go. I’d like to see any illegal settlements responded to by having a special group of Israeli police, working with Palestinian authorities and not just moving in on their own, arresting the settlers instead of the military moving in to protect them.
There’s also the outside influence to consider. Evangelical Christians love the settlers. They help them and any politicians who would protect them. They’d work against a politician who promised to arrest them.
There are a lot of factors in play and the solution won’t be an easy one.
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I do. This time the scope has changed and a big army is going to engage. This isn’t going to be tit for tat.
It has never been tit-for-tat at any point during this conflict. Unless you’re going back to the fucking crusades or something.
Since ww2, no. The Palestinians aren’t even close to being capable of going tit-for-tat against the US Military Industrial Complex (aka Israel’s military).
You’re missing the part where Israel’s reaction to an attack (often on the IDF) ends up with casualties at least one or two orders of magnitude higher. Nearly all civilians who are already living an oppressed life and being illegally displaced from their homes and their land.
One has unquestionable support by the most powerful military that has ever existed.
But yeah man, both sides are the same.
People have this bright idea that the horrible status quo will somehow change by diplomatic means. It never will when the whole conflict is based on the ideology which sole goal is the genocide of the Jews.
It will never end as long as the Israeli government keeps treating the Palestinians as subhuman. That’s what creates more terrorists every day. Hamas is a response to Israel’s continued occupation and oppression. The Nakba has been going on for over 50 years and people still out here acting like Palestine started all this.
Bro it almost changed three times in the past thirty years (1995, 2008 and 2012). Guess who ruined all three: Yes, Netnyahu. The conflict isn’t as unsolvable as you think; it just needs a sane government not headed by a far-right genocidal maniac.
That’s the way it happens most times. This time, though, will probably be very brutal with lots of blood on both sides.
I appreciate the work they do to cut through the mandatory pro-Israel dialogue in the states. “Not in our name!” ❤️
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Is that pvc or steel in the thumbnail? Impressive strategy regardless. Guess they don’t need their arms?
If you’re trying to make a point, sometimes you gotta get drastic. Human chains as a form of protest are a time honored tactic.
Not commenting on the actual crisis going on but who cares what the American Jews think? They aren’t in Israel and have never lived a day over there. It’s almost like American Irish giving their opinion of Brexit. Yes we know what is going on is wrong, but the audience voicing their opinion barely has more relevance than the average person. It must be exhausting on boths sides to have foreigners voice their opinions on what is an actual war zone right now.
When a common refrain of pro-Israel propaganda is “All criticism is antisemitism”, you bet your fucking ass that the opinion of American Jews is important.
Similarly, when people assume that because you’re a Jew you must support Israel, it’s also important to make that distinction.
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Not commenting on the actual protest going on but who cares what the random Fedi thinks? They aren’t in the protest and have never participated a minute over there.
This is a social forum. It’s made for comments? You don’t have to care what I think and I’m fine with being wrong, but I hope you aren’t on Lemmy just for an echo chamber.
Wow, so, a public space is appropriate for public comment, like, perhaps a protest is a legitimate expression of opinion?
betz24, I’m about to exercise my freedom of expression on a social forum made for comments, but, your comment (not you, I don’t know you. Big distinction) is very stupid. With high emphasis on both “very” and “stupid”. It also displays an absolute lack of self-awareness which I think would be personally enriching for you to start practicing.
Dusty thanks for the feedback. Clearly a lot of people are upset at the comment I made. As a person with several friends in Israel, I felt this article wasnt doing the people justice.
Comparing the Jewish diaspora to the American Irish isn’t even apples and oranges, it’s apples and ice cream trucks. They’re not even in the same category.
People with Jewish ancestry are born with a “birthright” to become a citizen of Israel (including the option for dual citizenship, of course). It’s just a completely different and unique situation.
You know that Ireland is not a part of the UK, right?
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