The bridge is basically valueless compared to everything else about the ship and cargo plus the lawsuits from various contract breaches and other damages. Port shutdowns, environmental cleanup, insurance losses. $100m is a rounding error.
It was worth $110M in 1977. Probably a couple $Billion now.
That’s not how rusty decaying infrastructure works.
Not sure what you’re trying to say. The new bridge will cost far more than the old one, and the insurance settlement for the loss of the bridge will far exceed the original construction cost.
Wouldn’t they only have to pay the depreciated value? After all, a replacement bridge will be more valuable than the one that was destroyed.
Legitimate question btw, I have no idea how… bridge finances work.
Present value
Right, is this not the same thing as cost minus depreciation?
Again, I don’t know the first thing about this subject, so I’m trying to relate it to, like, home insurance. If your roof starts leaking all over, they don’t give you the full amount required to replace it, since shingles need to be replaced every couple decades. They give you the amount minus a linear multiplier of how long it’s been since they were last replaced.
Present value is more like replacement cost minus depreciation but ask an insurance adjuster.
That isn’t how damages work either. They can’t reuse anything so it’s the price of what it costs to rebuild the same bridge in the same place with current prices and the estimated cost of cleanup and whatever business damages are claimed which almost certainly exceed the cost of the bridge.
You’re causing me to question their tech nerd wizard credentials
Which is what I said. The cost of the bridge is a rounding error. The cost of the damages resulting from its collapse both on land and in the waterway is the real damage.
Reading comprehension in the states is very low.
Multi billion dollar material costs are hardly valueless. Less than you’d think given everything else but still absurdly costly quick is why Baltimore never replaced it.
Explain real estate prices then?
Explain how the cost of your driveway does not appreciate over time.
The replacement cost goes up with what the current prices are. But a 8k driveway does not become a 200k driveway just because the house it’s going to is a mansion.
That bridge is a shitty old rusty bridge. It may be economically valuable, the waterway may be valuable, it may have large opportunity cost for the city. But it’s still a hunk of old steel.
The cost of the bridge, is the old steel.
The cost of the insurance layout is the old steel PLUS all the other factors.
You Americans are so stupid.
Your point is as valid as saying a person is worth $27 because that’s the cost of the elements they’re made up of.
Location, replacement cost, possible cash flows: all of these are possible additions to the value of something. Even just the value of the permit to have such a bridge would exceed the value of the metal.
I suppose there’s a difference between the resale (or original) value of the material, and the abstract value of having an, any, bridge in that location.
There’s also the concept of forward replacement value, which is the cost of replacing something like for like.
If you lose control driving and knock over an old tree and out lands on my house, you’re not only responsible for the tree - you owe me a house.
The economic damage of destroying a bridge that’ll take years to replace plus blocking a major port until debris can be cleared is going to be at least 10-figures - probably more.
Nobody is disputing that.
The value of the tree ironically does go up a lot over time. But it’s still the value of the tree. The value of everything else is still a cost and that is EXACTLY THE POINT I MADE. The cost of the tree is insignificant compared to the house and you’re hotel bills.
Reading comprehension… It’s a glorious thing, and lost on Americans.
My fellow lemming. You made a terse comment that was prone to misinterpretation. People misinterpreted it.
I see what you’re trying to say, and I see how people are understanding it differently than you may have intended.
I’m not saying your underlying message was wrong, certainly a rusted old bridge is momentarily not worth the same money that it was when it was installed, but that’s not how you seem to have been interpreted.
I won’t tell you what to do, but if I may make a suggestion: it may be prudent to be a little less terse.
Have a good day.
The point you made?
Someone said replacing the bridge would cost billions and you called them out saying that it’s rusty and decaying.
And the value of trees is a complicated subject. A significant part of my life is dealing with trees and the laws surrounding them for a municipal government.
My friend, your xenophobic comment makes me sad.
It’s cost is both material and in the business of links from one side to the other. It’s almost certainly worth multi billions at this point.
And not just the business from one side of the land to the other, but also from the port to… everywhere out in the ocean. With the old bridge remnants blocking ships, that’s a LOT of lost business…
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Think it’s probably more appropriate to say recover instead of rescue by this point. Unfortunately the Atlantic is pretty cold this time of year.
And they plunged almost 190 ft (Wikipedia info) into said water.
So they’d free fall for ~3.4 seconds and hit water at around 75mph. That part could be survivable depending on angle of impact and safety features of the car. Assuming they survive impact, getting out in the dark with cold murky water coming in car and surviving the hypothermia as well and odds are slim to none.
and they would have to be lucky enough to not have the bridge structure fall on top of them.
Unfortunately it wasn’t freefall. If you watch the video its over 5 seconds from when the bridge collapses till they’re in the water.
I replayed the video a zillion times to focus on each car going down. It’s horrifying
Vehicles are designed for impacts from both sides, the back and the front, and maybe to roll around a few times… But not for what these people experienced.
The remaining victims were part of a construction crew filling potholes.
https://apnews.com/live/baltimore-key-bridge-collapse-latest-2024
Minor correction, that’s not the Atlantic, it’s the Patapsco river which flows into the Chesapeake Bay.
Still cold as shit and very likely those people are dead now unfortunately.
There’s an outside possibility of revival if the water is cold enough and they’re found soon.
Oh yeah, like that one child that was found under the ice in a lake frozen over. His body had gone into some extreme hibernative state.
Sadly coast guard has always ceased calling it a rescue, it’s now a recovery operation
No matter how many times I look at that, I read cheapskate bay
They were on the phone with bankruptcy lawyers before dawn. That is the ones that didn’t just disappear into hiding.
How rude, waking up lawyers that early. They’re humans too, jeez, no business calls before 9am, ok?
They’re human too
CITATION NEEDED
I have a paralegal who can find a citation for that. $500/hr plus expenses.
Aw good point. Unfortunately I cannot provide evidence to support my statement.
Can you get insurance for a ship?
Yes, there’s rather shady business surrounding ship insurance, actually.
Is there anything in existence that isn’t a fucking scam ?
sourdough bread is pretty swell.
Don’t know about all those artisan bakeries tbh.
Not of great use for bridges related accidents though
Woodworking
Lumber prices…
Gardening, libraries, USPS?
Ooh, please do elaborate
I don’t know what they’re talking about but here’s an example of a maritime insurer (as well as being one of the insurers that insures other insurers)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lloyd’s_of_London
E: sorry, Lloyd’s is not an insurer, but an “insurance and reinsurance marketplace”
Sir I will insure your ship for just a $1000 premium. I only take payment in iTunes gift card.
Ship insurance is somewhat how modern capitalist world trade came into existence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_East_India_Company?wprov=sfla1
Bunch of people putting money together for ship to have a try going and returning with lots of goodies, is like an insurance I’m some way.
I think insurance isn’t just possible, it’s obligated to be allowed to enter certain ports with certain shipsizes.
My God, some of the questions being asked here just beggar belief.
Everyone learns something for the first time somewhere, but yeah. Lemmy is supposed to skew millennial.
There is a legitimate concern that their policy doesn’t cover a noticeable fraction of the damage.
Lucky 10,000.xkcd
I like the general sentiment but not the worked example,.the US is only ≈4% of the global population so 10k is low balling.
I think it’s reasonable to exclude a large portion of the population that isn’t chronically connected, and English speaking. While, admittedly that’s not only the US, it’s much more than 4% with the vast majority of the world excluded.
I can see an argument for taking internet usage as a proxy for education in which case the US swells up to ≈16%.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_Internet_users
But I don’t think we can exclude non-english speakers, supervolcanoes are a global phenomena, mentos is sold in 130 countries by an Italian-Dutch corporation, and insurance traces its roots back to Chinese shipping in 3rd millenia BCE.
This is not a difficult thing to find an answer to, either.
Estimates I could find said $60-$120 million
I assume wrongful debt suits are gonna eclipse that tho
I think that’s when it was built. A superstructure like a major port bridge will be well into the billions in 2024 money.
Remember to also factor in losses due to transport disruptions in the calculations regarding the value of the accident
They’ll declare bankruptcy before they fish the victims out of the water
You made me think, I wonder how the related legislation differs in Singapore vs the US
I feel out of the loop. What happened to the bridge?
Container ship hit it and the entire thing collapsed
The front fell off.
You remember that childhood song, London Bridge is falling down, falling down, falling down? That happened, but it’s not London
I want to hear the song about this one
This: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JebyNOvJmCM&pp=ygUfYmFsdGltb3JlIGJyaWdhZGUgY29sbGFwc2UgbGl2ZQ%3D%3D
Police audio from the incident: https://youtu.be/xzOvImnlHFc?si=INIeTXr7ThY5dAlw
The whole bridge just collapsed
It broke.
Me too.
You the best lol
It would not just be the bridge cost, some Corps. could try suing for business income lost. Do not think they will get very far.
Like, most people still are not aware how this is going to fuck a bunch of market sectors that is theich bigger problem until the port is fully operational. Most (if not all) European car imports come into Baltimore. Cocoa comes there too. There are dozens of products. Ramifications are dire. On top of just to the local economy. Not to mention the pain of worst traffic.
Expect price increases on some specific markets. Surely someone with more time and better knowledge will do a much better write up soon enough. Either here or on the news.
Everyone’s blaming the ship, but the bridge should have been built to withstand such an impact.
Edit: Tell me you don’t know that pier protection systems exist with saying you don’t know that pier protection systems exist.
https://www.repierson.com/projects/drba-ship-collision-and-protection-system/
Just one example of such a system.
97,000 tons moving at just 3mph would be sooo much force. I’m not sure what type of bomb it would be equivalent to but I don’t see much stopping that.
I’m coming up with 1000lbs of TNT. I have no idea what I’m doing though and the conversions are apparently controversial.
You can hit the standard bridge with 19, 19 hand high horses with a standard 15 meter trebuchet; assuming all shots are places back to back in under 7 minutes.
If it is built to withstand such a horse thumping, it is given an A rating by the Bridge Association of America. (BAA)
Some of this may be controversial though.
does range come into play here?
It shouldn’t. A trebuchet is a superior siege engine with great horse tossing ability. What might factor is whether it is riderless or not.
Liz, can you go back to working the register at the Quik Trip and stop getting high behind the dumpster and making comments on Lemmy? K? Thanks.
Can you point out any bridges are built to withstand 100,000 ton ship directly colliding with them?
For whatever reason I don’t think you’ve done the math.
I think you have to look at natural bridges like Beringia for that kind of durability, which would be unfeasable to build as standard infrastructure
The point of most bridge protection systems is to stop a ship before it can directly collide with it. They are usually separate structures.
The bridge you linked likely wouldn’t have been able to withstand the collision of this ship at one of its pillars. Assuming that the numbers are for a fully loaded ship at 120,000 DWT at 7 knots, it could only take about 90% of the momentum maximum that the Dali had (116,000 DWT at 8 knots) at once.
For my American friends that’s about 27.56 fully loaded F-35Cs going max speed (Mach 1.6) at the same spot at the same time. Or 312 M1A2 Abrams.
I’d have to look at shipping logs and whatnot to say whether that specific protection system is sufficiently rated for the traffic going under that bridge.
And I mean, come on, the fact that a completely random protection system I pulled up can “only” withstand 90% of the impact we’re interested in is not a fucking gotcha. It’s evidence that this kind of system is completely reasonable for this kind of impact. Engineering, physics, and numbers don’t work this way, but shit, scale it by 20%. Tada.
Ok but that relies on them knowing that they’d be hit by this exact size ship in the future. Hindsight is 20/20. The Delaware Memorial Bridge is within 10 ft of clearance and is about 2,000 ft longer than the Baltimore bridge, and both would take vessels of this size, why would they just randomly decide to scale the same kind of system by the number required to stop the bridge from collapsing from being hit in this specific scenario (or more) for the Baltimore bridge?
Also what’s with the “only”? If it doesn’t work, it doesn’t work. It’d hypothetically still collapse the bridge even if the system were effective for ships 90% of this ship’s weight.
Failure in an engineered system is rarely a binary condition, though the FSC bridge is a type that fails catastrophically once you fully remove that pillar. But, recognize that you can damage the pillar without removing it.
Anyway, the protection system necessary for the bridge isn’t just a factor of the design of the bridge. Like I referenced in the previous comment, it’s dependent on the traffic going under. The world’s biggest bridge would never need a collision protection system if the boats going under were small enough.
This isn’t a hindsight problem. Bridges have known traffic under them and should be rated to withstand impacts. It’s extremely easy to predict what the largest possible impact is for a particular bridge and plan accordingly. Do you think this boat was lost? This particular boat probably passed under that bridge a hundred or more times before it malfunctioned and hit it.
