One point I haven’t seen mentioned, is the severity of punishment. Why did this person feel it was better to fight to the death rather than let the police take them? Could it because of draconian prison policies where they would go back to jail for years and years and years possibly forever?
If every interaction of the police is potentially completely life-changing, it makes people act very desperate
This. A lot of people don’t get that “hard on crime” is some authoritarian bullshit that creates crime as a self-fullfilling prophecy.
Shit, you’re gonna put me to jail for 8 months, ruin my life completely, and then send me to prison, where I’ll have whatever psyche broken down into a million pieces as I work in what can only be described as the western goulags?
No don’t you see, working manual labor inside an active wildfire for $0.13 an hour so you can buy a $5 Top Ramen to avoid eating the chlorinated sewer runoff they call food (see the infamous prison loaf) is totally different from gulags.
p.s. don’t bother applying for the same job you did for free in prison once you’re out, having a record disqualifies you! Good luck paying rent!
It’s kind of sick and twisted. When compared to actual functioning reformist prison systems, look no further than Norway.
During the 60s and 70s, it was the wardens that brought about the reform, because they didn’t like the way the prisoners were being treated. Several persons per room, one toilet per 6 people, etc. It was inhumane and it was the actual prison wardens who organised to fix the issue.
Now, many years later, the Norwegian prison system is one of the most effective prison systems in the world, with a low return rate. People who suffer from mental health issues and who break the law would be treated well in Norwegian prisons, leading to a much higher chance of reform and them becoming fully employed tax payers, so it sort of pays for itself over time.
In 2016 US police visited Norway and said “you should have a system more like ours”, and despite Norwegian police being somewhat their own boys club, a resound “hell to the no” resonated across the Norwegian landscape.
Do you want MS-13? Because penal colonies/western goulags is how you get MS-13.
And maybe if the courts were worth half a shit, I would just stand up for myself the proper way, but not after being jailed for 10 months having my court date indefinitely moved up until I was too broken to not take the plea deal.
As an example consider unarmed meter maids. They write parking tickets. They rarely get into gun fights. They rarely get shot at. Because when you encounter a meter made even if you’re a career criminal, they’re just going to give you a ticket. You know this can’t escalate in spiral out of control. So people don’t shoot meter maids.
So what you’re saying is make it a wrist slap and nobody will get upset? lol. Forget the fact you’re moving the goalpost from, “they retaliated because of prison conditions” to, “it’s because the police were armed!”
The real reason is these were bad dudes in a terrible state of mind and society failed them long before this point. More criminals voluntarily do a crime just to get 3 meals a day and shelter. Can’t be that terrible if many are doing that, can it? It’s also not like people don’t resist arrest in countries where police are unarmed.l
I’m not going to discount America’s plethora of issues from 1) terrible education, 2) terrible health care systems, and 3) Below-average prison conditions just to name the big 3.
But, this guy had a massive criminal record going back over a decade. He was a massive piece of shit, and the vast majority of people served warrants simply do not engage in a shoot-out, putting a child and mother at risk. For as much shit as I give police officers, this is a reflection of the criminal’s state of mind and not anything the police did. I seriously doubt this dude had the foresight to consider prison conditions.
As you said he has a big criminal record, maybe this would be his third strike? Maybe this would end his parole etc…
So let’s work with the theory this was the straw that would break the camel’s back, third strike possession of a firearm, send him away forever. I’m not saying I agree with his actions, but I can see how people would react in that situation
He’s been well beyond the 3rd strike for quite some time as I gleaned from reading.
There’s really no good alternative about it. The police did what they should’ve done. They got a warrant and pursued a bad guy. There really is no justification for what he did. If anything, it justifies arming the police more in order to enforce the law; for there is no substantive evidence to the contrary to suggest that if they came bearing balloons and flowers he wouldn’t gun them down just the same. That’s the thing about criminally insane people… They are not consistent.
What he did is ensure every cop is doubly-armed and on-edge in the future, for every cop has no alternative. After all, they don’t control the prison system or the healthcare system or the education system.
One point I haven’t seen mentioned, is the severity of punishment. Why did this person feel it was better to fight to the death rather than let the police take them? Could it because of draconian prison policies where they would go back to jail for years and years and years possibly forever?
If every interaction of the police is potentially completely life-changing, it makes people act very desperate
This. A lot of people don’t get that “hard on crime” is some authoritarian bullshit that creates crime as a self-fullfilling prophecy.
Shit, you’re gonna put me to jail for 8 months, ruin my life completely, and then send me to prison, where I’ll have whatever psyche broken down into a million pieces as I work in what can only be described as the western goulags?
My gun could also go clap clap, because why not?
No don’t you see, working manual labor inside an active wildfire for $0.13 an hour so you can buy a $5 Top Ramen to avoid eating the chlorinated sewer runoff they call food (see the infamous prison loaf) is totally different from gulags.
p.s. don’t bother applying for the same job you did for free in prison once you’re out, having a record disqualifies you! Good luck paying rent!
So there is a statistic that 70%ish of prisoners return to prison within 5 years.
It was one of the things that “radicalized” me when I learned it.
It’s kind of sick and twisted. When compared to actual functioning reformist prison systems, look no further than Norway.
During the 60s and 70s, it was the wardens that brought about the reform, because they didn’t like the way the prisoners were being treated. Several persons per room, one toilet per 6 people, etc. It was inhumane and it was the actual prison wardens who organised to fix the issue.
Now, many years later, the Norwegian prison system is one of the most effective prison systems in the world, with a low return rate. People who suffer from mental health issues and who break the law would be treated well in Norwegian prisons, leading to a much higher chance of reform and them becoming fully employed tax payers, so it sort of pays for itself over time.
In 2016 US police visited Norway and said “you should have a system more like ours”, and despite Norwegian police being somewhat their own boys club, a resound “hell to the no” resonated across the Norwegian landscape.
Do you want MS-13? Because penal colonies/western goulags is how you get MS-13.
And maybe if the courts were worth half a shit, I would just stand up for myself the proper way, but not after being jailed for 10 months having my court date indefinitely moved up until I was too broken to not take the plea deal.
I wonder how much burden we could take off the justice system if we allowed canning to be used as punishment instead of incarceration.
We all luckily we have history to tell you that
You’ve attached a lot of weight onto mere speculation.
Is that how the daisy holds up the elephant?
As an example consider unarmed meter maids. They write parking tickets. They rarely get into gun fights. They rarely get shot at. Because when you encounter a meter made even if you’re a career criminal, they’re just going to give you a ticket. You know this can’t escalate in spiral out of control. So people don’t shoot meter maids.
What the actual fuck hahaha.
So what you’re saying is make it a wrist slap and nobody will get upset? lol. Forget the fact you’re moving the goalpost from, “they retaliated because of prison conditions” to, “it’s because the police were armed!”
The real reason is these were bad dudes in a terrible state of mind and society failed them long before this point. More criminals voluntarily do a crime just to get 3 meals a day and shelter. Can’t be that terrible if many are doing that, can it? It’s also not like people don’t resist arrest in countries where police are unarmed.l
There might be some systemic reason why the United States has the most bad dudes per capita as evidenced by prisoner population.
And yes the severity of punishment does factor into how strongly people resist being punished.
Is the goal to make people suffer? Or is the goal to rehabilitate people?
I’m not going to discount America’s plethora of issues from 1) terrible education, 2) terrible health care systems, and 3) Below-average prison conditions just to name the big 3.
But, this guy had a massive criminal record going back over a decade. He was a massive piece of shit, and the vast majority of people served warrants simply do not engage in a shoot-out, putting a child and mother at risk. For as much shit as I give police officers, this is a reflection of the criminal’s state of mind and not anything the police did. I seriously doubt this dude had the foresight to consider prison conditions.
As you said he has a big criminal record, maybe this would be his third strike? Maybe this would end his parole etc…
So let’s work with the theory this was the straw that would break the camel’s back, third strike possession of a firearm, send him away forever. I’m not saying I agree with his actions, but I can see how people would react in that situation
He’s been well beyond the 3rd strike for quite some time as I gleaned from reading.
There’s really no good alternative about it. The police did what they should’ve done. They got a warrant and pursued a bad guy. There really is no justification for what he did. If anything, it justifies arming the police more in order to enforce the law; for there is no substantive evidence to the contrary to suggest that if they came bearing balloons and flowers he wouldn’t gun them down just the same. That’s the thing about criminally insane people… They are not consistent.
What he did is ensure every cop is doubly-armed and on-edge in the future, for every cop has no alternative. After all, they don’t control the prison system or the healthcare system or the education system.